Duelist sucks, let's make it better

If anyone follows me I really enjoy duelist but the longer I played as one the more I realized it's just a mara wearing a blouse. Kripp also said something the other day that struck a note, saying duelists suck because rangers suck. The only way a duelist is good is if you head to mara area and at that point you are better off just making a mara.

He's totally right. Last night I was talking with my buddy hexaste trying to figure out some ideas on how to improve duelist. The tree sucks, I know there's been some improvements but go look at shadow's area, it sucked too a while ago, so there's hope!

Here's my thing. Blood magic does feel like a shared node between mara and duelist but most beginning duelist get confused by mana flows and just stick with mana. I'm not against either, just trying to prove a point stick with me. Unwavering stance is a confusing one because you'd think that a class with armor/evasion chests would want to use evasion, also mara's giving up evasion for not being stunned isn't really a big deal. Iron reflexes is another confusing one, I thought we were suppose to use evasion and there's two big nodes here that allow me to not use it? These nodes make duelist confusing so newbies don't know what the hell to do with them. Also experienced players learn that evasion in low numbers sucks and armor in anything but extreme numbers sucks so life tanks are better. Hell I've seen a few people doing CI duelists lately, having very valid reasons as to why it's better too!

I recently had a thread saying that duelist has no identity, so let's create one.

From the tree it seems duelist is meant to be a tank but through damage mitigation, not so much life like maras but armor sucks for hard hits. While I don't see the devs doing a major overhaul on armor to fix duelists from sucking (please for the love of god lower the modifier, nerf granites and endurance charges!) I'm going to worry about other things that help clarify what a duelist really is.

The most popular builds are DW and 2h axe (you're welcome). The two weapons that are really "duelist" are swords, which have an accuracy bonus and axes which just have higher damage. I haven't really thought up of anything that integrates axes so I'm not sure why I'm blabbing about them. Also duelist seems to have a favoritism towards cold damage, also I see no other class that seems to fit the S&B image better (a class designed for DR rather than absorption, shields fit great). Lastly we think of duelists as the speed class but I showed in my previous thread they really aren't.

• Keynode #1 "I'm awful at naming stupid skills, pretend this is a genius name"

"Gain 1% chance to block for every 100 accuracy but lose 1% armor/evasion/resists for every 100 accuracy"

I thought, duelist had alot of accuracy, almost a needless amount and we need to find a use for it. They have weapon skills with accuracy % and swords come with % accuracy as well. I think adding a block chance helps make having a high accuracy worth it. Also makes sense, if you can hit them with a sword accurately, you can block their attacks too.

The drawback hex and I battled about, he suggested evasion. It makes sense, accuracy is dex, so basically half of dex gets stronger while the other have gets weaker. Like I said above there's 2 nodes talking you out of using evasion, don't need a third. I suggested armor but he pointed out how armor works you'll never take away enough armor for it to really hurt much. He finally suggested resists as they can be recovered by investing in nodes but seems like a point sink.

I think all three could work but lowering evasion seems like a bad idea. I'm also open for suggestions!

• Keynode #2 "I'm unoriginal"

"Always crit against frozen mobs"

We went back and forth on this one for an hour. Duelist doesn't have much crit strike but does have ice bite (30% more cold damage) and those weapon elemental damage nodes (30% over 3). Shadow is the lighting class, shock procs with strike (like all ailments) so we thought it would be fun to have duelist as the cold class. There isn't a direct drawback because in order to freeze you'll need to do heavy damage or crit often, two things duelists aren't exactly known for. But this node will drive more duelist towards getting ice damage related builds which would also drive them away from being life tanks and stacking LL. Also probably make those gloves and shield that convert physical damage to cold more used.

• Suggest #1 - Give us easier access to acro

Move A/PA lower so duelists can use it. Shadow area is pretty damn good at this time, most are going CI where they can still use evasion or using life, ES and evasion, either way not many actually taking or interesting in using acro. Duelist might like to make use of it but it's pretty far away making it a long stretch to get both BM and acro. I think making it easier to get opens up more builds for duelist while not really hurting shadows too much.

• Suggest #2 - Make us the speed class

We all think of duelist as the speed class but we aren't. Take these big IPD nodes, lower them and add some IAS. Do it for all of them. Fencing, lower to 12-14% and add 2-5% IAS. Make it so we can use slower weapons at higher speeds so we can be sword and board but still do damage. They call that a transition because the next thing is...

• Suggest #3 - Make us the shield using class

No class claims this, everyone but witch have shield mastery all classes have some shield nodes, very vanilla and generic. I claim this as duelist's new speciality. The problem with melee is you devote most of your tree to EHP so you struggle for damage the whole time. Then late game you search for DPS. Getting this shield nodes means not being able to get that DPS later so let's work some magic. Have shield nodes that help with DPS. Have some shield passives that add IPD/IAS when using a shield. Don't make it so duelist do more damage with a shield but make it so it's not an embarrassing difference like it is now.

Another way to solidify that is to add 2% block chance while DW and using a shield to leather and steel but lower the values to 10% like the other hybrid armor nodes. Nullification makes leather and steel look like crap, adding block chance beefs the node up more in general also helps define what the class is about.

Lastly, why not have nodes that add damage when using the shield to attack? Actually have nodes that increase shield charge's damage. Who better to get good use than shield charge than the shield class. *wink and the gun*

• Suggest #4 - Get rid of the claw wheel

Seriously, we can't get enough int for claws. Whatever logic put it there can easily be dismantled. Move them between ranger and shadow or towards the middle of the tree. No reason for it to be where it is.

If anyone has other suggestions for keynodes or other moves to help duelist out, please share. I want duelist to stand out as it's own class. I think being the fastest class, the DW class and shield using class really helps it shine on it's own.

I love playing 2H sword duelists but I agree they do suck.



That said I'd love to see 2H swords get some love.

Hilt Guard


Years of dueling with two handed swords have taught you how to defend yourself. Though your attacks are less accurate you have a chance to parry and counter all incoming attacks.

Amount of damage countered is equal to base physical damage of sword and increases with passives.

Chance to parry is equal to increased accuracy percentage on swords and can be increased via passives.

Most likely the passives to increase parry chance/damage will be all sword nodes in duelist area. Like make all sword damage passives include a 1% parry rate increase. I'm thinking sword nodes in between the frenzy and endurance charge nodes.

A most excellent post. I wanted to provide more detailed feedback, but then my homie, deployed to Afghanistan, called.. So talking shit with him kind of takes priority.. In the meantime I'll give a generic +1 in support of your cause.

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ampdecay написал:

I love playing 2H sword duelists but I agree they do suck.



That said I'd love to see 2H swords get some love.

Hilt Guard


Years of dueling with two handed swords have taught you how to defend yourself. Though your attacks are less accurate you have a chance to parry and counter all incoming attacks.

Amount of damage countered is equal to base physical damage of sword and increases with passives.

Chance to parry is equal to increased accuracy percentage on swords and can be increased via passives.

Most likely the passives to increase parry chance/damage will be all sword nodes in duelist area. Like make all sword damage passives include a 1% parry rate increase. I'm thinking sword nodes in between the frenzy and endurance charge nodes.

Ya I'd like to see some nodes that make 2h swords more useful too. It's hard to match the damage of maces (stun) staves (block) and axes on top of that they use GS (stun) and sweep (knockback) while swords give accuracy then cleave has no proc.

I think building some connection with accuracy and block can really open up alot of possibilities for duelist, also puts their high accuracy to use rather than just being an easy way to not be forced to get RT.

Stuff like parry and higher block chance seem to make sense in my head as things a sword master or someone who has incredible accuracy can do.

Duelist might only suck because the concepts around what it could be good at are underdeveloped rather than the entire class is garbage from the start.

"

it's just a mara wearing a blouse

Haha , i lol'd.

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JoannaDark написал:

"

it's just a mara wearing a blouse

Haha , i lol'd.

Some of the others I lean on "Italian mara" or the one that I get scared sometimes saying because my toon name was censored "Gay mara"

Great post. Definately agree with some kind of parrying esque kind of sward/axe specialist :)

Just a quick thought though. I think the templar has claimed the Shield specialist class. That area has > 10% increased block chance easily attainable, plus 10% increased all resistances when using a shield, plus upwards of 120% increased defenses from shield easy to get. If I wanted to maximise block, I would go nuts with the Templar :)

I'd probably place the duelist as a DW/sword/axe with high accuracy fencing type of guy (wearing a blouse as you say :) )

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StillSingle написал:

Great post. Definately agree with some kind of parrying esque kind of sward/axe specialist :)

Just a quick thought though. I think the templar has claimed the Shield specialist class. That area has > 10% increased block chance easily attainable, plus 10% increased all resistances when using a shield, plus upwards of 120% increased defenses from shield easy to get. If I wanted to maximise block, I would go nuts with the Templar :)

I'd probably place the duelist as a DW/sword/axe with high accuracy fencing type of guy (wearing a blouse as you say :) )

Fuck templar. They have ele damage, resists pouring out of their assholes, dual totems, RT, necro shit, inner force, melee with crit and staves with block %. Fuck them, let duelist have something ffs and let's make it good for duelists too.

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Moosifer написал:

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StillSingle написал:

Great post. Definately agree with some kind of parrying esque kind of sward/axe specialist :)

Just a quick thought though. I think the templar has claimed the Shield specialist class. That area has > 10% increased block chance easily attainable, plus 10% increased all resistances when using a shield, plus upwards of 120% increased defenses from shield easy to get. If I wanted to maximise block, I would go nuts with the Templar :)

I'd probably place the duelist as a DW/sword/axe with high accuracy fencing type of guy (wearing a blouse as you say :) )

Fuck templar. They have ele damage, resists pouring out of their assholes, dual totems, RT, necro shit, inner force, melee with crit and staves with block %. Fuck them, let duelist have something ffs and let's make it good for duelists too.

Lol, a little edgy there eh, nice to see such a constructive post from a seasoned player.


Seriously though,

Templar is kind of out of place aswell.

I) 50% Elemental Damage with weapons, and another 40~% Elemental damage and 18% Fire/Cold/Lightning. Mind you, these are all additive which aren't even worth getting.

II) Resists you say? I count 20% From body and soul x 2, and another 10% which is fairly awkward for a melee type to get. There is also the usual 3 resist clusters, but these are mutual with all classes. Duelist has access to 15% which is fairly even to the Templar, another note is that that the 30% in the Templar side requires quite an investment and can actually be a waste of points.

III) Dual Totems, great we have something unique.

IV) RT, with all of our Elemental Damage nodes whats the point of even using this? We need crits to proc ailments, RT is only useful to the Templar because he has ZIP for accuracy or he builds like a Mara. Also it's not like we really have any defensive keystones available, we have EE and RT(Which is shared..) which do not synergize like the Duelists 2 keystones.

V) Necro Shit? IMO the witch is just far superior in terms of summoning than the Templar.

VI) Inner Force, yea, it's good, the witch has great access to it too tough.

VII) Melee with Crit? Really? And Staves with block chance? Come on.
Crit : Oh wow, we have 130% chance to Crit. You guys get 125% Crit chance in 3 nodes, and can get another 30% if you head up towards the Ranger. I feel like 5% isn't game breaking.
Staves : We actually get our own weapon specific nodes, just like the shadow, witch, marauder (we share with him :3), Duelist & Ranger. Block Chance on staves is no more than dual wielding.


Duelists are the dual wielding class, that's how I identify them.

Also, seeing as how every build can be built from every character within +5- points, I don't think identity is such a HUGE issue.

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CNKalmah написал:

Lol, a little edgy there eh, nice to see such a constructive post from a seasoned player.


Seriously though,

Templar is kind of out of place aswell.

I) 50% Elemental Damage with weapons, and another 40~% Elemental damage and 18% Fire/Cold/Lightning. Mind you, these are all additive which aren't even worth getting.

II) Resists you say? I count 20% From body and soul x 2, and another 10% which is fairly awkward for a melee type to get. There is also the usual 3 resist clusters, but these are mutual with all classes. Duelist has access to 15% which is fairly even to the Templar, another note is that that the 30% in the Templar side requires quite an investment and can actually be a waste of points.

III) Dual Totems, great we have something unique.

IV) RT, with all of our Elemental Damage nodes whats the point of even using this? We need crits to proc ailments, RT is only useful to the Templar because he has ZIP for accuracy or he builds like a Mara. Also it's not like we really have any defensive keystones available, we have EE and RT(Which is shared..) which do not synergize like the Duelists 2 keystones.

V) Necro Shit? IMO the witch is just far superior in terms of summoning than the Templar.

VI) Inner Force, yea, it's good, the witch has great access to it too tough.

VII) Melee with Crit? Really? And Staves with block chance? Come on.
Crit : Oh wow, we have 130% chance to Crit. You guys get 125% Crit chance in 3 nodes, and can get another 30% if you head up towards the Ranger. I feel like 5% isn't game breaking.
Staves : We actually get our own weapon specific nodes, just like the shadow, witch, marauder (we share with him :3), Duelist & Ranger. Block Chance on staves is no more than dual wielding.


Duelists are the dual wielding class, that's how I identify them.

Also, seeing as how every build can be built from every character within +5- points, I don't think identity is such a HUGE issue.

I think temp has alot of shit it can become while duelist can just copy builds that other classes can do as good or better. Temp has alot of unique nodes and saying that it isn't polished isn't the same as duelist is atm which is nothing of it's own. Shadow is the speed class and even a better DW class. Ceto's DW is better than any other physical DW build I've seen. Any 2h/tank build is done better as mara. I had a long write up on why duelist has no identity I see no reason to rehash it all here.

That was my feedback thread, this is my suggesting on ways to make the class better. If you think temp needs some polishing feel free to make a thread about it, I do agree they need shit cleaned up but it's a good tree, just kinda haphazardly thrown together.