Duelist sucks, let's make it better

With accuracy the only things I can come up with are the obvious of hitting shit more accurately and being able to block more effectively. When I think accuracy I think hand eye coordination, if you can hit something with your sword you should be able to put a shield in front of something too. Although if this parrying idea goes through maybe linking accuracy with parrying would be a good idea making duelist that stereotypical Italian sword master.

Everytime I think duelist I think about this dude from Game of Thrones. I always try to imagine what he is able to do and find a way to translate it into the game. I'm being completely serious too, I feel like he's the real life version of what a duelist is meant to be.

@double - I disagree armor/eva is the weakest. I think it's pretty brutal to lvl with but end game wise you only really need 5-7k armor to handle the majority of damage, if you can achieve that, grace and some decent eva gear gives you free eva on top of that DR. The problem is it's very gear dependent and can't be done easily.

I am really falling in love with parrying. I just keep thinking of how great Charan's unique 1h (/2h) rapier would be.

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Moosifer написал:

With accuracy the only things I can come up with are the obvious of hitting shit more accurately and being able to block more effectively. When I think accuracy I think hand eye coordination, if you can hit something with your sword you should be able to put a shield in front of something too. Although if this parrying idea goes through maybe linking accuracy with parrying would be a good idea making duelist that stereotypical Italian sword master.

Everytime I think duelist I think about this dude from Game of Thrones. I always try to imagine what he is able to do and find a way to translate it into the game. I'm being completely serious too, I feel like he's the real life version of what a duelist is meant to be.

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I am really falling in love with parrying. I just keep thinking of how great Charan's unique 1h (/2h) rapier would be.

Yes!!!! I've always felt the duelist is THE sword master, the true combination of dexterity and strength. My whole idea of parrying pretty much comes from samurai battles in anime, they are one on one duels where the victor usually wins by parrying then stabbing his opponent.

This just screams accuracy. Not only can you hit something you're so accurate with your sword you can actually deflect attacks!

I made a duelist with sword/shield and even with all of the work that I put in he was only barely viable on low lvl maps. I had to use endurance charges a lot on top of high base armor to survive. I also grabbed as many health nodes as I could. It just felt so much harder to make a good melee build than it has for me to do spell casters or a summoner. Melee needs help as a whole but Duelists especially. I was looking at Duelist the other day and why in the word do they have no elemental support at all? Making an elemental build with Duelist looks really unappealing because they are all physical damage nodes (unless I am missing something).

I didn't make this build perfectly I was still a littler newer to the game. But I still knew far more than brand new players to the game which worries me that new players who start melee/duelist are going to get seriously frustrated.

My build used very high armor with Iron reflexes/grace/determination and good life. Of course I made the mistake of thinking armor was better than it really is but still it just takes so much effort to make melee defensive enough to survive. I know that once you really really understand the game well it gets a lot easier.

When I came over from D3 I thought everything either needed extremely high DPS or a shield, did a witch over there so came here and did a S&B duelist as my first toon. Even after respecs I was either left dying often or killing extremely slowly. Probably why I know the game so well is most people go mara or witch and have shit handed to them, my first toon I'm trying to figure out why it won't work so I had to play with alot of options.

Moose :)

a possible change to the second one, although it doesn't include parry/riposte, but it may do what you are thinking with the whole evasion/accuracy focus.

Arcane Sword Barrier:
Use your accuracy to determine whether you parried a spell to avoid the damage.
Your armour is converted to evasion for the next 5 seconds.

Sidenote: you could almost make it so that this keystone converts your armour to evasion? but I think this could be too OP, especially if the A/PA nodes get closer to the duelist. Your chance to avoid attacks would be >95% overall. You'd have the evasion roll, the acrobatics roll, the parry roll. Good luck getting anything through that. Although this would be similar to A/PA + shield come to think of it.

PS: I'm sure there's an appropriate formulae to make the accuracy vs spell check acceptable. Probably some function of enemy level :)

What do you think?

Not exactly sure what the point of it is. Accuracy would determine if you could land a parry regardless so the two are already linked in the way you seem to add to it. Also it would be a free extra for any melee users as 5 secs of eva is not a hard penalty unless it forces you to do a flicker parry putting you in a shitty situation and you rely on armor. A hybrid or eva melee users (block especially) would see this as a must have without a single drawback.

How about we go a different direction that I've been currently thinking, I've been sticking with "lets make high accuracy useful" why don't we fuck things up a bit.

25% chance to parry
25% lowered accuracy
(cannot be paired with RT)

Lowering duelist accuracy won't do too much, in fact the aps will make up for the loss almost completely, but it would still have to be a focus or you'll be sitting with 50% chance to hit late game.

Also would work wonderfully with a 1h no shield keynode. I'm really gonna push for that, it sounds better as time passes.

hmmm, well I did envision the second node only being able to be taken after the first one (which limits you to no shield and 1h weapons :)

Parry is not a strike back though, the riposte is the return attack.

Hmmm, I like your idea of moving accuracy into black chance......

I don't think a parry chance should reduce your accuracy though. but I'm thinking too real world.

I don't think it should be a flat % reduction to accuracy to give a flat % parry chance though. mechanically, this can end up in the situation that some people are giving up a lot less accuracy (in flat amount) compared to the block chance you are gaining.

I think a better solution would be to convert 25% accuracy to a parry/block rating. This means the more you stack accuracy the higher your parry/block % will increase.

Then you are starting to get nice synergies between Dex/Eva/Accuracy.

Also need to limit it to melee weapons. (Although a duelist parrying with a bow would be COOL but waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay OP).

What do you think? More along the lines of your image?

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Moosifer написал:

Not exactly sure what the point of it is. Accuracy would determine if you could land a parry regardless so the two are already linked in the way you seem to add to it. Also it would be a free extra for any melee users as 5 secs of eva is not a hard penalty unless it forces you to do a flicker parry putting you in a shitty situation and you rely on armor. A hybrid or eva melee users (block especially) would see this as a must have without a single drawback.

How about we go a different direction that I've been currently thinking, I've been sticking with "lets make high accuracy useful" why don't we fuck things up a bit.

25% chance to parry
25% lowered accuracy
(cannot be paired with RT)

Lowering duelist accuracy won't do too much, in fact the aps will make up for the loss almost completely, but it would still have to be a focus or you'll be sitting with 50% chance to hit late game.

Also would work wonderfully with a 1h no shield keynode. I'm really gonna push for that, it sounds better as time passes.

This keystone would have to work a little differently, (i'm not sure if mechanics allow keystone to NOT work).

Anyways, I support your push for the 1h no shield keystone, it seems to me that it would add a good amount of diversity - especially if it was a 2 stage keystone and the parry mechanic was installed.

Ah actually I just figured it out... Ill leave the above anyways.

In order to make your keystone unusable with RT it would require RT to make accuracy a maximum of 0.

So, Resolute Technique = Always Hits, Never get critical strikes, Maximum accuracy is 0.

Then, "Moosifer GG Keystone" = Converts 25% of Accuracy to 25% chance to parry.


The way I see it, this could be the FIRST keystone - and if the player wanted to delve deeper to get into the 2nd stage keystone it would require him to use one 1h weapon. (for more parry, IPD, ASPD.)




Also, I'd like to see a 2stage keystone that forks, making you choose between 2 fully opposite keystones. (maybe something for a different thread)

i dunno, the only double keystones (is it fucking keystone or node, people are confusing me) are the curse one and acro which both build off each other. These ones, while working together well, don't need to be linked and it limits their function.

I'd like to see 1h one early on, like near icebite early. While I think fucking with accuracy should be left for later, like where IR use to be or at the bottom of the round off under that DW circle. Something that makes it look optional but isn't a bitch to get to.

I feel like I'm having to twist the communities arm to get progress in this thread but shit is coming alone nicely. I PMed Chris to make sure he saw this, he said he'd have Carl read it too. Maybe I can be on the frontlines testing this shit in alpha! Means I need to find Charan's rare ass unique.

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CNKalmah написал:

The way I see it, this could be the FIRST keystone - and if the player wanted to delve deeper to get into the 2nd stage keystone it would require him to use one 1h weapon. (for more parry, IPD, ASPD.)

holy fuck, this does sound genius for IR/acro though. Have some generic "more eva bitches" node that splits off into either IR or acro and put it roughly where arrow dodging is now. Meaning it's far away from mara, make the lead up node useless to maras then have it split off to the two keystones(nodes) letting the person decide between IR or acro.

That's another issue I've been trying to figure out, how to remove IR from mara's cookie cutter build.