VP was never the problem

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ignatius_reilly написал:

PoE manages this to some degree with map tiers, but as you go higher it only means you're seeing more out of nowhere one shots.

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Nephalim написал:

Instant leech is crucial for steam rolling trash content that intermittently spikes for most of your life.

where are you guys seeing these spikes and 1 shots when clearing maps? I honestly dont think they exist if you dont want them to. Are you guys sure you are not using the flexibility of poes builds to make characters that are heavy on damage, low on defense and thats why you are experiencing such massive incoming damage?

I feel like i could play this game in rare red maps for 50 hours straight without seeing a single damage spike like this from trash, and I could play it for 100s of hours in that content without ever getting 1 shot. Im literally getting 1 shot maybe once every 1000 hours atm in maps and its always to a boss corpse explosion or an insane vol blood before they changed it. I guess the potential is still there but its become a telegraphed event now so I wouldnt even count vol blood as a thing any more.

The way I play is to shield charge directly into a pack and obliterate it, hit my quicksilver and charge again directly into the face of the next pack and obliterate it and I just keep going through all maps. I dont pay any real attention to what sort of monsters they are, what auras they have, what the damage mods are on the map, its trash/magic/rare/exile mobs, none of them do any damage that means anything, you just slam right into their face and hold down fire on any build and literally never even come close to dying.

What am I missing? Do people have access to tier 30 maps that roll with 12 mods that Im somehow unaware of? Cause I would just dive head first into anything in an 8 mod t16 map short of the guardian with any proper endgame build and it wouldnt even cross my mind for a second that there could be any possibility of dying. Im not using vaal pact on any of these characters, nor do they have insane 1 million damage setups, most of them dont even have half that damage.


What are we talking about here? Are we talking about 5k life characters who have 10k evasion, acro and a basalt flask? Cause I run around in leagues with rubbish little white tier map blasters like that and I know when I throw them into rare t14s shit can get hairy. Are we talking about those kind of characters? Cause some of you guys are big time veterans with very high level builds, I have to presume that when youre making serious builds that anything short of a crazy rolled boss in a t15+ map is the same absolute joke that Im finding all trash/magic/rare/exiles. If were talking 5k life builds with trace elements of defense you need a microscope to find I can get where the conversation is at, I can relate that to experiences Ive had, those kind of builds are open to just random 1 shots out of the blue in high content from almost anywhere.

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toyotatundra написал:

But mapping for xp - is fast and furious. Should I spend my time tactically avoiding trash and blue mobs? And doing that for every single pack for thousands of maps?

why would u ever need to tactically avoid trash or blue mobs?

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Snorkle_uk написал:

why would u ever need to tactically avoid trash or blue mobs?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9IxXHFPohE4

watch this for a few good ones (and hundreds of other similar videos)

ofc most of these are just the players fucking up, but there are some BS ones in there

I've not played Vaal Pact in years; literally years. Although I can't speak to how powerful a VP build is most recently as a result, I can also say there are plenty of non-VP builds that are more than viable.

A friend did play a wild strike VP build with me this league, and the yo-yo of his life was insane and he certainly relied on it to survive because he built around VP. In the meantime, I didn't have VP and survived just as easily (easier) than he did most of the time.

I don't think the sky is falling quite yet. There are plenty of viable builds.

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nskLantash написал:

But it's still _removing_ options.

What the people partaking in this back and forth should realize is this: you see the balance hierarchy in two fundamentally different ways. Imagine that you both agree the game has 100 builds of variable viability, and those builds are represented as a child's wooden blocks.

Camp 1 immediately stacks the blocks one on top of the other, reaching 100 high. They have a balance 'ladder'. They would NEVER consider putting two blocks on the same tier, or 10 blocks horizontally in a group. One build is always at least .0001% better than another, and therefore it gets stacked above the worse one.

For GGG to significantly nerf the top block, is to them unquestionably the full and complete loss of that block, as they only value the top 3 blocks.

Camp 2 organizes their blocks into 5 layers of gradually decreasing amounts. They have a balance 'pyramid'. Differentiating between .0001% power seems silly to them, so they just group them with other, similar things.

For GGG to significantly nerf the top block, or even the whole top group of blocks isn't a big deal. They see and expanded horizon of builds below it, waiting to become the new top. They value the top 3 tiers of blocks.



It is in this way that you can both be adamant that nerfs create or destroy build diversity.

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innervation написал:

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nskLantash написал:

But it's still _removing_ options.

What the people partaking in this back and forth should realize is this: you see the balance hierarchy in two fundamentally different ways. Imagine that you both agree the game has 100 builds of variable viability, and those builds are represented as a child's wooden blocks.

Camp 1 immediately stacks the blocks one on top of the other, reaching 100 high. They have a balance 'ladder'. They would NEVER consider putting two blocks on the same tier, or 10 blocks horizontally in a group. One build is always at least .0001% better than another, and therefore it gets stacked above the worse one.

For GGG to significantly nerf the top block, is to them unquestionably the full and complete loss of that block, as they only value the top 3 blocks.

Camp 2 organizes their blocks into 5 layers of gradually decreasing amounts. They have a balance 'pyramid'. Differentiating between .0001% power seems silly to them, so they just group them with other, similar things.

For GGG to significantly nerf the top block, or even the whole top group of blocks isn't a big deal. They see and expanded horizon of builds below it, waiting to become the new top. They value the top 3 tiers of blocks.



It is in this way that you can both be adamant that nerfs create or destroy build diversity.

but the problem is that you only need to stack the blocks to about 40-50 to complete the endgame.

but if for some reason someone can stack it to 60-70, they end up knocking it down to 20, even though there are plenty of builds just as capable of stacking the blocks high enough, just not higher than needed. so they don't allow new blocks to stack higher, since they were already as high as they could be, and that height is high enough. but that 70 height build will no longer be. and there'll still be other ways to stack the blocks to 70, but they may not be that enjoyable for some.

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shaunika90 написал:

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Snorkle_uk написал:

why would u ever need to tactically avoid trash or blue mobs?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9IxXHFPohE4

watch this for a few good ones (and hundreds of other similar videos)

ofc most of these are just the players fucking up, but there are some BS ones in there

Ive seen that video many times, not seeing anyone in that video dying to anything that fits the description tbh. i mean theres raiz in there with some build that has no defenses with less than 5k life and no leech dying to trash in a breach because for some reason he couldnt kill them and they overwhelmed him. I guess his build has no life no defenses and he didnt do anything to damage the swarm of monsters around him, I mean if thats the kind of builds people are playing then sure the games hard for them I guess.

Theres alkiezer playing a build with just life pool and very little proper defenses, his ehp is probably about 1/4 of what a properly defended build has at beast and he only dies because his internet fucks up in the middle of a t15 map chayula breach and we cant even see whats going on, on the server his character is probably standing still in that breach just being hit over and over and over without moving, potting, leeching, doing anything to defend itself. The reason he runs to the side and tries to log is because he can feel that hes lagged out and hes probably not seeing whats actually going on on the server.

I just dont see anything in that video.

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Snorkle_uk написал:

where are you guys seeing these spikes and 1 shots when clearing maps? I honestly dont think they exist if you dont want them to. Are you guys sure you are not using the flexibility of poes builds to make characters that are heavy on damage, low on defense and thats why you are experiencing such massive incoming damage?

Breach mobs/breach bosses
Beyond mobs/beyond bosses
Proximity shield bastards
Sub T15 bosses (if anyone still does this)
literally any mob that touches you in a -max/monster damage/what ever affix map

I would say its rare to get gimped by a non boss but over the course of hundreds an hundreds of hard rolled maps breached or beyond the number of deaths will quickly reach a baseline where progression becomes impossible for most players.

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CaptainWARLORD написал:

I honestly don't even care. Pretty much every build of mine is now dead.

CWC Tank = DEAD

Wild Strike Raider = DEAD

Molten Strike Boss Killer = DEAD

Scourge Flurry Scion = DEAD

Kitava's Frostbolt Assassin = DEAD

And the list goes on. I won't be pigeonholed into Summoner or Slayer. Fuck this.

I said it before and I keep my word. This is where I stop all support and playing.

Have fun playing logout mini-games sprinkled with one-shots on top.

LOL the self-entitled tears are just too much. best post 2017.

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MagpieTilliDie написал:

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CaptainWARLORD написал:

I honestly don't even care. Pretty much every build of mine is now dead.

CWC Tank = DEAD

Wild Strike Raider = DEAD

Molten Strike Boss Killer = DEAD

Scourge Flurry Scion = DEAD

Kitava's Frostbolt Assassin = DEAD

And the list goes on. I won't be pigeonholed into Summoner or Slayer. Fuck this.

I said it before and I keep my word. This is where I stop all support and playing.

Have fun playing logout mini-games sprinkled with one-shots on top.

LOL the self-entitled tears are just too much. best post 2017.

well, on HC at least, many builds that used VP in the past will die.
abyss HC will be a season of totems, summoners and miners, abusing MoM or something else.
unless there's something big in the patchnotes helping selfcast builds.


on SC, you will be able to get away with it. but you will die without it to random reflects and stuff.

for example I cant really see how selfcast DP or barrage could function without VP
then again, I've been only playing this game for roughly a year.

on the other hand part of me is really looking forward to a world without vaal pact.

It's sometimes annoying that spending time to avoid something, and thus not attacking for half a second is more likely to kill you than just yoloing into everything and spamming damage.

which means that sometimes (especially in high breaches/beyond etc)
you're sortof in a "hostage situation"
where your best option for survival is pray that you outheal the insane damage long enough for the mobs to die before they kill you.

whereas if leech was more smoothed out, and continued for a bit even if you moved. it'd be a more comfortable experience.

but it's gonna kill a lot of squishier builds that relied on vaal pact as their only defense (and really it was their only option too, wander barrage cant really do much else for defense, evasion alone wont be enough)

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It's sometimes annoying that spending time to avoid something, and thus not attacking for half a second is more likely to kill you than just yoloing into everything and spamming damage.