Crit Multiplier + Diamond Flask (still) too powerful

okay lets jsut say you made a guy that doesnt need any health flasks or mana flasks.

so you are complaining that 5 diamonds makes any build better well maybe the problem is there arent any alternatives to diamonds besides health or mana pots.

if you dont need health pots then granites are probably unnessisary as well.
res flasks suck at the moment.

so i mean everyone jsut uses 5 diamonds when they dont need hp or mana pots its really that simple. just have patience guys they are going to add more flasks


give you a build that isnt better using 5 diamonds how about like a ground slam marauder where having some granites can save you while having some diamonds makes everyone die in 1 hit instead of 1 or 2 hits.

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lethal_papercut написал:

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SL4Y3R написал:

Also, and I'm surprised NO ONE has mentioned this.

BUT, there are new flasks coming out..... If those diamond builds wish to maintain their "DPS" let them. I'll be too busy running past their slow ass.

Quicksilver ftw.

EDIT: Answered your question before I could even read it. lol

No one has mentioned it because it's totally irrelevant to the topic at hand, we are talking about Crit flasks not how fast you can run about.

Edit:

EDIT 2x: There is also EHP. Resists. MS. MF. AoE. What's fun to the player.

Come on Slayer you really don't need to play the naive act. Look at every ARPG out there, the most popular builds are always centered around DPS, I don't even know why I am saying that because you know perfectly well already.

Except who the fuck needs crit flasks when you roll past packs in 2s flat anyways? In this case I'd rather take quicksilvers and not be slow as hell.

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lethal_papercut написал:

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CanHasPants написал:

Sure, if DPS is the only relevant statistic.

In Default what else is there?

Oh, I don't know... kill speed (kills per second, different than damage per second), mana efficiency, defenses, magic find, all leading to the efficiency of resource acquisition, and impacted by the efficiency of resource consumption.

I mean, if dps was all there is, sure, I could build the glassiest cannon ever and give him 5 diamond flasks. But in reality, that toon would would overkill everything by a mile, and since he inefficiently spent his resources, would spend a few seconds between each encounter regenerating mana, die in one hit from anything, and, and, and.... yeah.

well it doesnt matter if everyone uses flasks as long as its not the same exact build using the flasks.

glass cannons really dont work in this game can you imagine trying to beat vall if you die from the rocks falling on your head?

i look at gear now and im like does it have +hp? no? sell.
id actually like to see this change hp should not be the single most important stat.

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SL4Y3R написал:

There are two main crit.multi circles. One in ranger. One in witch. For a witch to reah the ranger.one. it is incredibly investment heavy. By going that route, you will be sacrificing things like cast speed.

You were just claiming that people chase DPS without paying attention to what they're giving up and then turn around and do the same thing.

You only need one crit multi circle, a little crit multi from gear, and crit multi support on the spell of your choice to 1hit everything in the game except for bosses with 75 resist to the element of your choice. For those you need to hit them a second time after cursing them with the correct resist reduction curse.

All other passives can go into whatever defenses you like, or maybe some cast or run speed so you don't feel like you're wearing concrete shoes.

Correct pneuma. I will grab those cast speed nodes to increase my DPS.

But, that's because I am an offensive witch. Who can use or not use diamonds and stand toe-toe with whatever is thrown at me (besides Mouze :P ).

To lethal:

As I've said, many players solely focus on DPS. Kudos to them. Wanna know what I put in my 6L? MF gem. lol. Why? Cause i steam roll everything anyways.

And CanHasPants said it best


Oh, I don't know... kill speed (kills per second, different than damage per second), mana efficiency, defenses, magic find, all leading to the efficiency of resource acquisition, and impacted by the efficiency of resource consumption.

I mean, if dps was all there is, sure, I could build the glassiest cannon ever and give him 5 diamond flasks. But in reality, that toon would would overkill everything by a mile, and since he inefficiently spent his resources, would spend a few seconds between each encounter regenerating mana, die in one hit from anything, and, and, and.... yeah.

I should point out, that crit multi, is not too strong, why is that?

5% Ele damage, for instance, with base crit multi, becomes much more then 10%. Crit multi on the tree is rather irrelevant, the issue is crit multi gem and crit multi on gear. Even then, crit multi builds, excluding totems, have severe issues with reflect mobs. With 213% Crit multi, on a split arrow ele archer, with 3.2k hp and 85% resist all, I popped a diamond, hit a mob once (No chain) Died immediately to a reflect in the water.

The nature of the beast is somewhat two faced. Reflect will ALWAYS wreck crit multi dependant builds. Crit multi and diamonds in general are veryveryvery INEFFICIENT in general. At the moment, you can easily steamroll absolutely everything (And I did) with 15-20k dps. There is absolutely no NEED to go higher, meaning that diamonds lend themselves to being a greater liability then benefit for most high-end builds.

It is also part of the controversy between why I, as a high end ele archer, choose to go split arrow over ele hit+lmp (No chain on either btw) it simply comes and lends itself to the efficiency. Split arrow can throw 5 projectiles, ele lmp, 3. I already have the damage to 1-2 shot everything, so why go with 3 when I can have 5?

While at the same time, I do believe, that there is no build besides possibly a crit sparkler, who can clear as fast as my split arrow diamond harper, I also admit, that you can do the same with even a fifth of my damage. At some point, even in default, you will find adding more dps to simply be a liability to you, as you will die every so often to a reflect. It is only a matter of time before you get to a point where you kill yourself as fast, if not faster, then you gain 10/15% XP.

So basically, while you do have a point that diamond flasks are the most efficient dps flask, that is true.

However, is that due to diamonds being OP due to being the ONLY devoted DPS flask, or because it is REALLY OP? (Shock and diamonds need some rebalancing though.)

+I think diamonds should give +25% Crit chance and then double your crit chance. 60% Crit chance from a flask, with 5% and no investment. Then introduce some flasks that give diamonds some competition.

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EpsiIon написал:

+I think diamonds should give +25% Crit chance and then double your crit chance. 60% Crit chance from a flask, with 5% and no investment. Then introduce some flasks that give diamonds some competition.

I appreciate the intention, but this leads to the same conclusion as my suggested +10% base crit chance and +100% increased crit chance. On a dedicated crit chance build this would mean pretty much 100% chance to crit. But on any non-crit build I run, I don't want to spend a flask for even a 99% chance to crit. Imo, flasks should give absolute benefits, not "Maybe it'll do this or maybe it'll do that.." No matter how minuscule that "maybe not" might be.

And I do think that is absolutely important, all flasks should be predictable, they should constantly produce the same expected results. This makes them unique among other RNG-centric elements of the game, gives them identity and therefore importance.

But I also think you hit on something important here, albeit not quite what you meant:

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EpsiIon написал:

being the ONLY devoted DPS flask

If we had more variety of dps-centric flasks, then I think it'd be entirely okay to implement exactly what you suggested. It'd be predictable then, "If you're a crit build, guarantee a crit, if not, then it's up to the Fates." The significance being that, at the moment this is the only flask that any (non-RT) build can absolutely rely on for a momentary dps boost.

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CanHasPants написал:

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EpsiIon написал:

+I think diamonds should give +25% Crit chance and then double your crit chance. 60% Crit chance from a flask, with 5% and no investment. Then introduce some flasks that give diamonds some competition.

I appreciate the intention, but this leads to the same conclusion as my suggested +10% base crit chance and +100% increased crit chance. On a dedicated crit chance build this would mean pretty much 100% chance to crit. But on any non-crit build I run, I don't want to spend a flask for even a 99% chance to crit. Imo, flasks should give absolute benefits, not "Maybe it'll do this or maybe it'll do that.." No matter how minuscule that "maybe not" might be.

And I do think that is absolutely important, all flasks should be predictable, they should constantly produce the same expected results. This makes them unique among other RNG-centric elements of the game, gives them identity and therefore importance.

But I also think you hit on something important here, albeit not quite what you meant:

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EpsiIon написал:

being the ONLY devoted DPS flask

If we had more variety of dps-centric flasks, then I think it'd be entirely okay to implement exactly what you suggested. It'd be predictable then, "If you're a crit build, guarantee a crit, if not, then it's up to the Fates." The significance being that, at the moment this is the only flask that any (non-RT) build can absolutely rely on for a momentary dps boost.

Actually the lack of dps flasks was my main point, in a round-about manner of speaking. I believe the only issue with diamond flasks is they have no direct competition, and then another issue, and the only one that has any kind of merit, is that it makes crit chance an invalid node. Which it does. My suggestion was made to amend that.

While I do agree that crit chance nodes and gem are very underpowered due to being outclassed by diamond flasks, in the end, it is simply due to a lack of offensive flask variety (Being the only offensive flasks are, arguably, mana flasks (Or mana leech on flask effect))

I do not wish for Diamonds to be stat nerfed or taken out the game. I love the way they work, they are great as an 'oh shit' flask for a temporary burst in damage. That mechanic is very cool & adds a very nice aspect to the game in general. The problem occurs when your can run 5diamonds. THAT is the crux of the issue, not the crit chance, not increase in DPS but the chaining of flasks.

Take away the ability to use 5diamonds and you have a very well balanced & fun flask.

5 is the problem, not the damage, not the 100% crit chance, just that you can use 5.