Feedback from a PoE player who started playing D3 again

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UnderOmerta написал:

The game is HC is most senses of the word?

Let's go by Rhys's definition then, since you like to use his.

Is POE hardcore in the terms of time spent? No, not really. People can get pretty GG gear within a month or two of the league. There is probably someone out there on Ambush running around with a 6l Shavs. Is this because he spent more time than anybody in hardcore who doesn't run one? lol...

A) We have to have a definition of what is "long time spend", or what is required to count as HC.

Lets say the average action game on PC or console takes about 6-12h to finish.
That means a game which requires more time than lets say 6-12h to finish, or to basically have seen most of the content could be considered more HC than such a game.

Lets say a grindy RPG takes about 50-100h spend instead.
Does PoE have such a requirement to get to endgame and get good gear?
I think so. Especially if you are a new player. You need at least 20h to play through normal.
Multiplying this by 3, would be 60h to get to merciless (implying you would actually manage to do so and not forced to reroll)

A HC racer on the other hand can reach level 50+ in about 8h.

after two days they can play Maps.

After one week they might even do 70 maps (this would be at about 100h play time). Which is (considering the time span of 1week) what I would consider as HC as most people have not the time to play a videogame for 100h+ in a week.

About your claim on 6L shavs, provide evidence or it is a mute point. (not to forget that RNG plays a big roll here, there is no "play X hours win a shavs" mechanic in POE).

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UnderOmerta написал:

You get wealthy off that at many, many times the rate of farming and actually playing this game. So does it reward time investment? Sure, as an econ simulator. Not as an ARPG.

This is just plain wrong. People HAVE to play first before they can trade. If no one plays there would be no items to trade in the first place.
Someone has to find the shavs. Someone has to find the exalt.
Or else they couldn't trade.
First finding (aka killing monsters), then trading.

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UnderOmerta написал:

Does this reward knowledge? Sure, it rewards to some point. But past a certain [very low] point it doesn't reward knowledge anymore. Being more knowledgeable about the game's mechanics will do nothing to help you advance your game when someone else is simply getting much better drops than you are.

While RNG sure can help the lucky ones, the knowledgeable will always be on top. They know what items are worth stuff, they know what to roll, they know which builds can do fine endgame and acquire the items.

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UnderOmerta написал:

Does it reward skill? Laugh. This game is probably the lowest skill ceiling of any popular multiplayer game today. Most of it is a few button spam and basic positioning. Is it a game where you can sink years of play honing your skills like an FPS or RTS? Yeah... no.

I don't understand what peoples conception of skill is.

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Skill (Oxford Dictionary)
The ability to do something well; expertise

To say there is no skill or low skill ceiling in PoE means that basically no one can do something well, or do it with "expertise".
What people fail to realize is that dexterity is not always skill.
Or actually, dexterity is one type of skill someone can have.

(just a side note here. I am pretty sure I am responding to a troll but whatever)

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UnderOmerta написал:

So again, HOW is this game hardcore, even using Rhys's obviously biased metric? RNG is not hardcore. Competitive and hardcore players HATE RNG in their games. RNG normalizes nothing but the skill gap.

It is HC by the metric Rhys set up. And the one who is biased is you.
RNG is one aspect of the game. It's the aspect that puts in fun.

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Fruz написал:

@Startkabels : (micro) management is basically what makes the game interesting ... if you remove that, you would end up having a dumb game for casual (assisted?) players.
Path of exile clearly does not seem the be a game that suits you tbh, its hardcore dimension seem to go against what you want, you probably just should keep playing D3.
..
I havn't played D3 tbh.
Maybe micro management is not the right label here ( that's why I used brackets for micro in the previous post ) and has been miss-used.
What I meant is : managing all the resources PoE is giving to build a character is what makes the game interesting, managing skill gems is one of those things.

It is managing resources that's interesting, but micro management is the kind of management that you don't want.

It's unwanted because it's management without a clear goal.

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Startkabels написал:

It is managing resources that's interesting, but micro management is the kind of management that you don't want.

It's unwanted because it's management without a clear goal.

Say that to every dota and RTS player ever.

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Fruz написал:

Yes it is :
Robes are suited to offer easy blue combinations = easy spell combos most-likely.
If you want to use melee skills with on a robe, that can get really difficult depending on your combo.
If you want to have a lot of armour, you can use a pure str chest, but you will then have a hard time rolling your blue sockets for the spell that you want to use.

Note that in many games, robes gives magic resistances instead of armour.
Of course you cannot compare all the mechanism are different in their design, so the comparison is not 100% relevant, but the fact is : one type of armour is better designed for its aligned skills/support, like mages use robe in other games.

Except all it does is limit creativity.

It's not like spells = blue supports. LMP, GMP, Chain, Fork, Pierce, Culling Strike, Faster Projectiles, Mana Leech Increased Duration, Reduced Duration, Melee Supports for Summons, Iron Will, Life Leech, Spell Totem, Empower etc.

There's more supports that aren't blue which apply to spells than supports that are blue.

The exact same goes for most else. There's no direct relation between a gem's color, an offensive playstyle and a defensive playstyle.

I can make a melee-based evasion character relying almost purely on blue gems and it would make perfect sense thematically and gameplay-wise: melee, crits and evasion (which handily gives a bonus to my own crits being reflected). Well... I would be able to were it not for the self-defeating socket-system.

How about an armor-based spellcaster relying purely on green gems? I'm sure you've heard of EK. Works great with many green gems like Faster projectiles and needs armor for reflect. Except that's apparently not a real spellcaster because of those green gems and armor?

The socket-color system is simply bad. Where links offer choices in what you support your skills with, colors take all those choices away again and often force you down the exact same path as everyone else.

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Startkabels написал:

Guys can you leave Diablo 2 and stretched micro discussions out?

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Septile написал:

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Startkabels написал:

Gameplay

The cut scenes, the voice acting, the story What a relief....

Most obvious troll ever.

Really? You want to argue about this? Blizzard is an Enterprise company with millions of dollars available probably.

And it shows in the in all those elements, you disagree with that?

Any arguments? No?

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Septile написал:

Either way, there's gonna be a lot of hype around d3 like it was on release, and then a few weeks later people are going to realize that the game is still as deep as a puddle, then bitch endlessly. It's a vicious cycle.

You seem to be ignorant, Blizzard is listning to the feedback they have received and have addressed the major concerns. The removal of the auction house is the perfect example.

I taste a lot of hate in your response but not a lot of insight. Your avatar suits you and it a shame to this community that you are a forum moderator who is dismissing honest feedback as trolling...

Okay. I've had enough.

This shit makes me mad as hell. (and I can't take it anymore)

You come here, post about how shitty PoE is and how much better D3 is because it caters to your casual gaming taste.

You actually give no reasonable feedback whatsoever and only say things that are obviously not intended in PoE so you better play something else instead.

Then people call you a troll (rightfully so) because you do nothing but point out that you personal needs are not met in PoE but are also not the fucking point of the game, while saying you enjoy D3 so much more because it is a pandering shit fest for people who don't like to use their brains while playing a game.

Hey nothing against that, a lot of people just wanna turn of their brains and have a bunch of fun. But please do so and don't fucking post your non-feedback here in the feedback area and expect us not to go mad, not give a shit or call you out as the troll you are.

Seriously. We as a community do not need players like you. You can play diablo 3 that is fine with us, as long as Path of Exile does not turn to this casual crap that D3 has turned into.

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You seem to be ignorant, Blizzard is listning to the feedback they have received and have addressed the major concerns. The removal of the auction house is the perfect example.

Yeah right, they bend over backwards and get their a** penetrated by their customers. It's a weak move on Blizzards end and only shows they have no faith in their own product. They fucked up the community is mad, and now they try whatever they can to cash in the last few dollars.

And you are one of the many guys who at first think this is all great until you realize the game got boring because it turned out too streamlined and easy and play the next game or whine a little bit more until they change it again to be even less good.

If GGG would change every little thing people whine about the game would have lost its integrity long ago.
Thankfully GGG actually understand how to make a game that is not only there to cash in on the huge wave of casual gamers that exist now, but to make a great experience for those among them who hate the current gaming industry.

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KenshiD написал:

What I got from your post:

If what you say below is what you got from reading my OP, I would visit a doctor



Aka: Hey guys in D3 I find good items without much effort! Please make PoE more casual friendly so I can compete with those players who play 8+h a day.[/quote]

In fact, I meant that in D3 I find upgrades by putting effort in killing monsters, nothing more.

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By removing trading from the game, they have to do that.
But here are some things to keep in mind:

1) Removing trading removes an important part of the game and also a social aspect.
2) Items in D3 are babby design and thus easy to generate for your character. This is NOT possible in PoE because of deeper mechanics which cannot give you drops only you need.
3) Finding items easier makes you play the game less, Arpgs are about grinding and luck, you should really understand this. It would kill the longevity of the game.
4) Getting better gear all the time would kill the economy. Look at Ambush atm, they have crazy amounts of maps etc, thanks to strongboxes.

1) True
2) Disagree, items in D3 have mods that matter. Items in PoE likely have crappy and unwanted mods
3) Disagree, finding upgrades by killing monster easier makes you play more. It is unrewarding drops and unrewarding crafting that was ruining it for me. aRPG's is not about luck at all if you ask me, howso should I understand that?
4) No comment, I think you're making a bold assumption there

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Aka: Making the game shitty casual shit.
Don't forget PoE was designed for HC players, if you don't want that, play D3.

Again: Micro management is not hardcore

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Because it makes the game deep and fun, while "hurr durr I just click this and now I am a different character" makes the game cheap and shit.

Micro management is not deep and fun

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I think you think it sucks because it is not casual friendly.
If you think the tree sucks then I don't understand why you ever played PoE. The tree is the main attraction. It's like going to a zoo and complaining about all the animals there.

Also your comment about "there are only a few good paths on the tree" is utter bullshit. And shows that you have not played enough to understand that there are many many different ways
to build even if it is the same character.

Alone when it comes to PVP builds there are a lot of cool things to do.

I also explained that in my OP: The tree seemed to serve endless character customization, but turned out to be mainly micro management and the diversity was a disappointment for me. It basically came down to stacking defenses my picking obvious paths and taking major keystones and as much offensive nodes on the way.

Arguing with your on your second statement seems pointless but I disagree

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Aka: I think making the game easy and casual appeals to me because I am a casual gamer.

No I think adding core stats to the tree was a mistake and is pigeon holing players into certain passive trees

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Aka: For me D3 feels liberating, it liberates me from using my brain and I can just goof off and do a bazillion damage to monsters with quazillion HP and find items with higher numbers YAY!

No it liberates me from micro management and use my brain for things that matter

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Aka: I hate RPGs, I want a powerful character right from the start and not build one. I mean it's not like RPGs should be about creating a powerful character in the first place, they should be more like fighting games and big numbers!

No that was not what I said at all...

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Fun Fact:
The story is shit.
The VA annoying as fuck (especially the templars infinite fucking talking and all the bosses)
The environment is streamlined and has no variance it is like walking through a premade path.

I agree on Cut Scenes and Responsiveness. but that is what you get from a AAA game. But still it is a fucking shitty game.

If you don't see that these elements are better in D3 compared to PoE that discussing this is pointless.

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Gobla написал:

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Fruz написал:

Yes it is :
Robes are suited to offer easy blue combinations = easy spell combos most-likely.
If you want to use melee skills with on a robe, that can get really difficult depending on your combo.
If you want to have a lot of armour, you can use a pure str chest, but you will then have a hard time rolling your blue sockets for the spell that you want to use.

Note that in many games, robes gives magic resistances instead of armour.
Of course you cannot compare all the mechanism are different in their design, so the comparison is not 100% relevant, but the fact is : one type of armour is better designed for its aligned skills/support, like mages use robe in other games.

Except all it does is limit creativity.

It's not like spells = blue supports. LMP, GMP, Chain, Fork, Pierce, Culling Strike, Faster Projectiles, Mana Leech Increased Duration, Reduced Duration, Melee Supports for Summons, Iron Will, Life Leech, Spell Totem, Empower etc.

There's more supports that aren't blue which apply to spells than supports that are blue.

The exact same goes for most else. There's no direct relation between a gem's color, an offensive playstyle and a defensive playstyle.

I can make a melee-based evasion character relying almost purely on blue gems and it would make perfect sense thematically and gameplay-wise: melee, crits and evasion (which handily gives a bonus to my own crits being reflected). Well... I would be able to were it not for the self-defeating socket-system.

How about an armor-based spellcaster relying purely on green gems? I'm sure you've heard of EK. Works great with many green gems like Faster projectiles and needs armor for reflect. Except that's apparently not a real spellcaster because of those green gems and armor?

The socket-color system is simply bad. Where links offer choices in what you support your skills with, colors take all those choices away again and often force you down the exact same path as everyone else.

Caster/spell setups are mostly blue. Green supports are good for projectiles bonuses, which can boosts many spells also, but that does not make a spell setup rely only on green gems, most setups have like 2 green gems at most and that's it, which isn't difficult to get at all tbh.
Summoners are almost fully relying one blue sockets also.
Etheral knives seems to be more for the shadow than for the witch tbh, there is a reason why its dext requirement is higher that its int's.

You can quite easily make a crit/evasion melee, that's called a shadow, it's perfect for that and it's alignment is .... ext/int, and dext/int chest will fit perfectly this purpose.
You can obviously use a pure eva chest and only get 3 blue sockets, that will be enough and it's manageable. Or you can easily take EB + Cloak of defiance/MoM and use a hybrid dext/int chest, which will actually be more efficient .



It's not perfectly tuned, one could question some of the gem's colors I guess, but to me, it seems to fit its purpose.
And I'm a CI melee, using a dext/int chest because I wanted additional evasion ( and the outlook of the chest also lol ).

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Startkabels написал:

I have started a new Wizard in D3 and wanted to share my impression of patch 2.0.3. coming from a long PoE period in which I did not play D3.

Loot and crafting
Why is it so hard to decide that killing a rare monster is likely to provide an upgrade? I think that is fair an not necessarily easy (if it is, make the rare harder, not the drop more random!).

Build diversity
I think the passive tree of PoE is deceiving: It looks huge and options seem endless but when you find out how it works in practice, you'll see that there or really not that many different options for proper builds. The options that are there are obvious and predicable. And actually, I think the experienced PoE players (should) know this damn well.

Gameplay
Maybe an open door but the gameplay in D3 feels really superior over PoE. Your character feels powerful form the start while in PoE your character feels a bit like a moron in the start.
The cut scenes, the voice acting, the story, the environment, the maps, the skills and their effect, the responsiveness of the game. What a relief....

I may be rehashing some points already made (didn't read most of the responses) but since you seem to be paying attention my 2c:

On Loot and Crafting:
While I can see the appeal in what you say, I think you need to wait for a few months after RoS is released before you can conclusively say that this system is a success. Honestly, even in PoE it's not that hard to self-find upgrades until you get to the very end of the game. It might come a little slower than with the Smart Loot system, but it exists.

The problem with this type of system though is that eventually, you *already* have top tier, GG gear. Then what? There's nothing left to strive for. The point of making godly gear hard to get is that it extends the amount of time there is a carrot at the end of the stick. While I do agree that PoE could be more rewarding per time spent, my guess is that D3 has swung too far in the opposite extreme and that people will generally find it boring after a very short amount of time.



On Build Diversity:
I would have agreed with you until I saw the tree of the guy who was the first to kill Atziri in Ambush. The beauty of the passive tree is that you can, in fact, create extremely powerful builds that are outside the norm if you plan your build very well. Being able to stretch the limits of certain mechanics like Auras, Righteous Fire, etc is what makes the game so fun.

Warning emotional rant in spoiler



I did not post how crappy PoE was at all. That is nearly your personal emotional perception of my post. I was only trying to give constructive feedback and explaining why I don't want to play PoE anymore and prefer D3 better.

I don't hate PoE, I actually like it in general. Also I am not suggesting that D3 elements are implemented or copied in PoE in any way. I am pointing out how D3 adressed certain concerns and how PoE can learn from that and address it their own way.

There is no need to insult me and I want to remind you that my opinion is shared by others. Also it is very insulting to break down a carefully written post into 1 false, rude and deliberately misinterpreted statement.

You are a shame to any community, you are just a fanboy and your arguments don't count at all

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Fruz написал:

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raics написал:

Of course, Fruz, my man, unless you're saying it's perfectly fine a character in PoE is meant to go monochrome in order not to gimp himself. Opinions are nice and all that, but it's still a perfect example of a restrictive mechanics completely out of place, in fact it restricts nothing much, doesn't prevent you from getting too strong or anything, just annoys the roasted marshmallows out of you.

c'mon, you know well that getting 2 off colors sockets in a 5L combo is nothing difficult, 3 of them is a little bit more difficult but manageable with many chroms, I would not try more than that because I know that the probability is just ridiculously low, and I find it good that RRRRX ES chest are not common, because they should not be honestly.
Hybrid armor gives you less ES but allow you to get the combos that you need, therefore casters have the advantage when wearing robes.

Heh, yeah, I do but I also have a soft spot for dramatics :)

Sure, it's possible to use hybrid armors but you know how this game works, stackstackstack, sometimes using a hybrid-riddled setup instead of straight gear can cost you quite a lot.

I know it kinda works now too, but I don't get the reasoning behind it, what does the game stand to gain by it? It certainly isn't preventing us from becoming demigods, it has no effect on global game state in any way or the economy as a whole, if it's a chrome sink - fixing it the way it was suggested would still have people spending hundreds of chromes getting ideal slot combo, and if it proves ineffective they can always remove 3color recipe - done.

Slot number and links are perfectly justified, number of linked slots is pure power in this game, but strict color restriction is nothing but an annoyance, and you tell me - is yet another annoyance absolutely necessary in this game?