How can we fix Hierophant?

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dudiobugtron написал:

The Shaper is pretty DoT-heavy, meaning MoM would not be that useful. Who makes an MoM build to kill shaper anyway?
I would rather see an Uber lab or Atziri kill video.

It would make for a good test of power, though. This also supports my argument since having more of effective hp in Life instead of Life/ES would certainly make the fight easier in terms of replenishing full effective HP. Can't regen ES on DoT ground unless you spent a lot of points on Life Regen/ZO or went out of your way for Ghost Reaver/VP.

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sidtherat написал:

you have provided NOTHING besides napkin math. your experience with this game is limited to reading wiki and watching others playing. i have more hybrid characters than you have level 20/20 gems.

you really cannot see that people WITH experience are not really with you on this one? yet you still think you are right? so man up and prove it - your lvl91 character can be respecced, make a hierophant and PROVE that it sucks. we will tear it apart and prove you wrong.

as for the videos - i could do a video for you but you seem to be the 'goalpost moving type' so it makes no sense to waste my time

in short: this entire thread is a giant waste of time with miniscule entertainment component. it contains ZERO useful information yet lots of ideas based on napkin math


you are telling us that planes are impossible because.. they.. are.. heavier.. than.. air!

And what have you provided? You have provided absolutely nothing. Everything you do in Poe is governed by math. You ask me why and I show you with the mechanics and the values behind them. I ask you why and all you say is "you know nothing, you don't have experience!", as if repeating it makes it true, as if I haven't seen it with my own eyes.

You keep spouting on about a hybrid es/life/eva build, again far too far to be any good to Hierophant. You keep reiterating hybrid es/life/MoM builds and I show how it's inefficient in gear requirements and passive points compared to my proposed change.

You have 1 person on your side in the last 3 pages and you go and say "Everbody is against you."

You're turning a willful blindness to several things in this regard. In the very first 3 pages there are people explaining the weaknesses of Hierophant builds, one guy even going so far as to say "You can't make a pie from shit. Scrap the entire Ascendancy and start from scratch."

And by your entire metric, the people that say it's fine should be supporting you as their character tab doesn't have Hierophant characters, which by the way your character tab is private.

Either take this conversation into the math and mechanics or take yourself out of it. You're contributing nothing.

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stuff

what you do - the math - is 'plane's weight is higher than the air displaced so it cannot fly'

you lack experience to do math. personal experience. most of the stuff you wrote is just based on imagination, hearsay evidence, misinterpretation and rubbish gossips from reddit


be a man, do your homework and come back. you have the passion. it is the knowledge and experience that are not there yet.

balance and build discussion requires both, sadly. your profile says that you havent yet ALLOCATED A KEYSTONE. it sounds trivial but means that youve done a total of one build till today. this is not amount of experience that makes you able to understand the math behind this game - and to understand where this math matches reality of end-game gameplay and where it is a wiki-warrior type of math


i have 30+ lvl90 characters, 3 of them are hierophants and all 3 play BEST as hierophants. this alone makes all you say worthless.

this entire thread is a comedy at this point - you close your ears and do 'blaablaabla i cannot hear you' and remove the facts when they do not match your 'reality'.


beliefs face knowledge and experience and sadly beliefs - as always - win. meanwhile ill take characters you deem impossible and farm some stuff, beliefs cannot be changed. so be it, but im strongly against stuff like this making new players/less informed players make wrong decisions just because you shout your theories the loudest.

spreading misinformation on purpose is gross.

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sidtherat написал:

what you do - the math - is 'plane's weight is higher than the air displaced so it cannot fly'

you lack experience to do math. personal experience. most of the stuff you wrote is just based on imagination, hearsay evidence, misinterpretation and rubbish gossips from reddit

Again, to quote myself in the relevant areas:

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Tsokushin написал:

Again, the ES can become a reason for defeat as when it's depleted, even if you go back to full life, your ES is missing a considerable amount thus reducing your overall effective HP.

So, basic math. It's weird that I'm one of the only ones doing that in this thread. Let's count how many stats you need to get that build going. Life regen(for ZO), ES%, Life%, Mana%. And again, it's still weak because Life regen is weak until you stack considerable amounts of it. So again, you're pigeonholing the build.

As for leeching to ES (for which you need Ghost Reaver), without Vaal Pact, it's incredibly slow with the amount of ES you're walking around with. Picking up both of those results in a much more elongated build.

Simply streamlining the conversion instead of mana->es to be mana-> life frees up considerable build paths (lesser gear requirements, less nodes needed) and increases sustain as more of your effective HP is in fewer pools, requiring lesser # of tools to replenish it.

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Tsokushin написал:

Excluding gear, point for point %life is within 3-6 passive points within the range of %ES. You can even try it yourself. Give yourself 82 points in any tree planner, Life keeps up. The only way ES has won has been the high amounts of ES available on gear.

...

You speculated 4k ES. That's not a lot of ES. Without vaal pact, you can only leech so much in a certain amount of time. And again, if you pick up ZO and do not have the points in life regen to scale it, it's wasted. So again, your build is requiring 4 different stats to scale effectively and several notable passives.

...

... you keep bringing up ZO, ES nodes, etc. You need Life regen/ZO to keep ES going or Ghost Reaver and Vaal pact to keep ES going, Life to boost life, Mana to boost mana, and ES to boost ES.

That's several stats you'd have to keep invested in nearly every build resembling this, all of which would be identical. That's pigeonholed. Again, I'll reiterate. The build that requires a fewer number of distinctive stats is freer to pursue other options in gear and passives. Streamlining Hierophant Sanctuary of Thought into a mana->life conversion frees up a lot of points and a lot of gear.

...

The reason for that is because the Hierophant doesn't have much that the other classes can't already do with either comparable or higher effeciency while retaining all the other bonuses of their Ascendancy.

The only true strength Hierophant has is Illuminated Devotion, which I'm not proposing changes, and Sanctuary of Thought, which does need a change.

Again, this is the information I'm conveying in my discussion. Streamlining Sanctuary of Thought into a mana->life conversion places a far larger % of effective health into fewer pools. This means that the number of tools necessary to replenish is fewer along with the tools necessary to build them being fewer.

This results in more options.

Now, can you point out any of your quotes that detail mechanics and numbers?

you bring math. first and fundamental rule of logic is that you can draw ANY conclusion from the FALSE assumption

you make a quite a few false assumptions in your first and following posts

i think ive done my job here, make others aware that what you are creating here is just an imagination and wiki-based theorycrafting

however i miss the times when this kind of posts has been created by people that shared THEIR experiences with tools used to circumvent and based on that proposed some changes. you decided to skip both these steps and start with proposals. you are free to do so, but do not ruin games for others that will read your stuff and take it for granted. but at this point any reader is already aware of that so im waving you goodbye

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sidtherat написал:

you bring math. first and fundamental rule of logic is that you can draw ANY conclusion from the FALSE assumption

you make a quite a few false assumptions in your first and following posts

Can you point out the false assumptions?

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Tsokushin написал:

Look, you play in Eseence league?
If you do hit me up and i show you my level 88 Hierophant in action, just to make you understand how weak he is. xD

You guys are weird. You can make a char work even without ascendancies, that's not the problem. Are the defences you get as a hierophant as strong as let's say a slayer's 43% of your life pool regenerated/sec that doesn't stop on full life if you invest in leech? I'd say they definitely aren't.

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JohnNamikaze написал:

That feeling when you go crit EQ with Hege and can still afford to have three Ancestral Warchief totems out. Good way to get around reflect. :)

Similar my Hierophant Build:
Use Ritual of Awakening with "Non-Totem enhance" passive tree

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o-jfjZtdAPY
(Offensive Type)
Use Sunder and 2 Warchief totems for damage output
1 Protector totem for attack speed buff


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TyPEHLcNzbw
(Defensive Type)
Use Sunder for damage output
Deploy three Decoy totems for defense

So, for a tl;dr so far in the thread, I'll sum up the reason why a mana->ES conversion is lacking for the Hierophant.

The previous node to Sanctuary of Thought is Divine Guidance. It provides a 10% Mind over Matter effect.

Mind over Matter conflicts with having ES as it does not apply until ES is depleted.

Thus, these two nodes are at odds against each other for this reason. There's also the fact that hybrid builds are prone to flounder at higher levels.

A mana->life conversion for Sanctuary of Thought would be much better as it has synergy with Divine Guidance. It also streamlines Hierophant effective Health so we're not worrying about methods to restore ES via ZO or GR+VP and only have to worry about life/mana.

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sidtherat написал:

what you do - the math - is 'plane's weight is higher than the air displaced so it cannot fly'

you lack experience to do math. personal experience. <snip>

balance and build discussion requires both, sadly.

Meh. Technically I disagree with this. But having a bit of both is usually much, much better than having a lot of one. And frankly, even if you have neither, you can still speak the truth; even a broken clock is right twice per day.

I think what we can agree on is: to be right you just need to say the right things, but to PROVE it you usually need both theory and experience.