How can we fix Hierophant?

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sidtherat написал:

you are STILL talking about stuff you have no idea about. play the build, try it, make it work (or prove it doesnt) and THEN make 'fix stuff' posts

right now you are doing worst possible thing anyone can do on a feedback forum - spread FUD. some players will read this stuff and actually believe it and make WRONG build decisions based on the missinformation you spread

stop it. it is mean and pointless


i repeat: posts like these SHOULD NOT EVER be created by people who 'read about it somewhere sometime ago'.

you spread lies

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nEVER_BoRN написал:

For all intent and purpose 40% totem placment speed you gain from smaler nodes on way to Ritual of Awekening is suficiently fast especialy when combined with just one totem cluser with placment speed of 15% or so. I remember using Totem Zeal (35%) with out Ritual of Awekening and speed whas so high that most of time i placed totems two time insted of one. Ther is such ting as to mach. xD

That is what you get in age of Wiki backseat gaming, this age demand it.
Its good that he/she is stuborn else it be westing time on this game. xD

Most of what both of you have said has been nothing but "no, you're wrong". All the math and mechanics point towards inefficiency in this regard. On a point for point, number for number basis, Hierophant falls far behind. You have sid posting a video of attemting to facetank a mere t10 map boss which wouldn't fly on the upper levels and calls the build a success. (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qDZJRJkCYcw&feature=youtu.be&t=25) video reference. In all of this, Never_Born, you have not stated whether or not you have completed Atziri, or Shaper, or Guardians, or end game content at all for that matter. Show me that it works.

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Sure_K4y написал:

So, just to give you a fair warning, I'm with Sid on this one. You've no idea how much sustain you get by being hybrid, regardless of leech.

This is a game of damage spikes. They are what kills you. The extra ES Hierophant gets makes the difference between being "oneshot" by a pack or not, and you vastly undervalue this aspect, which may be due to lack of experience.

The simple fact of the matter is that you are under the impression that Hierophant is less good than other ascendancies, because Hierophant doesn't scream "This is what I am good at", when you look at his ascendancy nodes. Other ascendancies do that, they're easy to understand and pretty straight forward, Hierophant doesn't do that, but that does not mean he needs to get "fixed". You do not "repair" what isn't "broken".

In terms of being a "skill" class I will argue that Hierophant rewards skill on the player's end as much as any other class, though I will add that Hierophant is the class that really shines when built by a player who has the proper expertise. And I suppose that is what Sid was all about.

Again, the ES can become a reason for defeat as when it's depleted, even if you go back to full life, your ES is missing a considerable amount thus reducing your overall effective HP.

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When you look at the MoM mechanics, the extra ES, and do some basic math, you will come to realize that Hierophants have a much bigger effective HP-pool than you would have expected. They provide oodles of sustain. And if you have a hierophant build with about 5k life, and 4k ES, plus MoM and ZO (and NOT taking EB) You can leech to life, regen your ES and thus you're suddenly really tough to kill. Leech to ES, while regening/flasking life is also good.

So, basic math. It's weird that I'm one of the only ones doing that in this thread. Let's count how many stats you need to get that build going. Life regen(for ZO), ES%, Life%, Mana%. And again, it's still weak because Life regen is weak until you stack considerable amounts of it. So again, you're pigeonholing the build.

As for leeching to ES (for which you need Ghost Reaver), without Vaal Pact, it's incredibly slow with the amount of ES you're walking around with. Picking up both of those results in a much more elongated build.

And for the point I'm continually trying to get to all of you. Literally any other ascendancy can do this exact MoM/hybrid life+es build with far more power in their trees.

Inquisitor: Pious Path, 4% life, Mana, ES regen on consecrated ground, +40% damage. Change to +80% when using sulphur flask which can be done on demand.

Occultist:ES recharge not affected by damage if it began recently. Regen ES on Kills.

Guardian: Life Regen and ES per aura used. Either good block chance or maybe even Time of Need.

Again, these are all Ascendancies that can easily pick up ES/MoM/Hybrid and have the tools or the damage to considerably make use of it.

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You also keep forgetting that Hierophants get additional sustain for free with their ascendancies, which allows for more investments into damage on the passive tree earlier on.

Yes, most monsters will die before they chew through 2k ES, most monsters are packs, mind you. And bosses, as I said already, will be a lot easier too, because Hierophant has nice sustain.

Look, you have not even played this game for a year yet, and believe it or not, to some mechanics in this game there are finer points, that you won't learn by listening to people who only play the meta (Because it's their last resort). It's not always that simple.

TL;DR: Hierophant isn't captain obvious, but it's significantly better than you think it is.

Look, nobody is disputing that most builds are capable of farming monster packs all day. But when it comes to endgame content, which is what I'm asking about, Hierophant will always fall short.

And again, I'm coming at you with values, I'm coming at you with mechanics and Hierophant's weakness relative to the other classes in the very build that it should be excelling in. This is why.

Simply streamlining the conversion instead of mana->es to be mana-> life frees up considerable build paths (lesser gear requirements, less nodes needed) and increases sustain as more of your effective HP is in fewer pools, requiring lesser # of tools to replenish it.

noone will ever take you seriously (nor read your 'carpets') after you started talking about stuff you have nothing to say about

using MY video to tell me what I wanted to say trough it is just gross.

it is now trolling and i think you are making a 'name' for yourself around here pretty quickly

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Tsokushin написал:

Again, the ES can become a reason for defeat as when it's depleted, even if you go back to full life, your ES is missing a considerable amount thus reducing your overall effective HP.

This where you are wrong due to lack of experience, not to mention you keep forgetting that you get some ES for free, which basically grows with your character as you progress through the game, without any further investments required. All you need to do is to enhance this quality with proper gear. On top of that you get a nice chunk of mana efficiency, which makes MoM more powerful on Hierophants than on any other character, because you have more mana to work with.

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Tsokushin написал:

So, basic math. It's weird that I'm one of the only ones doing that in this thread. Let's count how many stats you need to get that build going. Life regen(for ZO), ES%, Life%, Mana%. And again, it's still weak because Life regen is weak until you stack considerable amounts of it. So again, you're pigeonholing the build.

You count the stats you "need" instead of looking at how easy/point-efficient they are to get, this is the problem.

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Tsokushin написал:

As for leeching to ES (for which you need Ghost Reaver), without Vaal Pact, it's incredibly slow with the amount of ES you're walking around with. Picking up both of those results in a much more elongated build.

The amount of ES you walk around with depends on the gear you use, and the investments that you make into ES. So you really have made no point here. I will add that if you pick up Ghost-reaver, instead of ZO and leech to life, you might as well ditch the idea of playing hybrid, and go full CI, or low-life, which Hierophants can do comfortably as well, even with a lorica.

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Tsokushin написал:

And for the point I'm continually trying to get to all of you. Literally any other ascendancy can do this exact MoM/hybrid life+es build with far more power in their trees.

Inquisitor: Pious Path, 4% life, Mana, ES regen on consecrated ground, +40% damage. Change to +80% when using sulphur flask which can be done on demand.

Occultist:ES recharge not affected by damage if it began recently. Regen ES on Kills.

Guardian: Life Regen and ES per aura used. Either good block chance or maybe even Time of Need.

Again, these are all Ascendancies that can easily pick up ES/MoM/Hybrid and have the tools or the damage to considerably make use of it.

This is where you are wrong, because, as I said earlier, Hierophants have the arguably best MoM framework of all the ascendancy classes.

Inquisitor needs to stay on that ground to benefit from Pious path, it is mostly useless while mapping, and helps only very little when you face end-game content that you cannot face-tank.

Occultist's recharge, and ES regen on kills looks good on paper, but it is only worthwhile on CI/lowlife builds.

Guardian adds more ES than Hierophant does, but guardian lacks the ability to liberally use skills, unless you invest even more into mana than you otherwise would.

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Tsokushin написал:

Look, nobody is disputing that most builds are capable of farming monster packs all day. But when it comes to endgame content, which is what I'm asking about, Hierophant will always fall short.

And again, I'm coming at you with values, I'm coming at you with mechanics and Hierophant's weakness relative to the other classes in the very build that it should be excelling in. This is why.

Simply streamlining the conversion instead of mana->es to be mana-> life frees up considerable build paths (lesser gear requirements, less nodes needed) and increases sustain as more of your effective HP is in fewer pools, requiring lesser # of tools to replenish it.

Last league I made an SRS totemer that facerolled just about anything you can imagine, including abyss, core, and colloseum. It could run all map mods, including bloodmagic, no regen whatsoever. Guess what? It was a Hierophant. So really, Hierophant is pretty darn good.

As for me pigeonholing builds: Nah screw that. If you're unable to use this class properly that is your problem. You're throwing numbers around that may look good on paper, but that's not where this game is played, believe it or not.

You can look at other builds like you do now, and be like: This build does that thing better than Hierophant, and other one does the next thing better, but really you're not looking at Hierophants as a class, you're looking at something that other classes do.

So, whatever man, have it your way. If you think people who actually used this class in higher tier content are all wrong, and you doing only pen and paper work, are smarter than the rest: So be it, I don't care.

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sidtherat написал:

using MY video to tell me what I wanted to say trough it is just gross.

Not to worry sid, I liked your video.

Hmm i thought you couldnt make more than 3 quotes. Also surprised some one almost writting longer posts than I have, although mine usually has less quotes.

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Sure_K4y написал:

This where you are wrong due to lack of experience, not to mention you keep forgetting that you get some ES for free, which basically grows with your character as you progress through the game, without any further investments required. All you need to do is to enhance this quality with proper gear. On top of that you get a nice chunk of mana efficiency, which makes MoM more powerful on Hierophants than on any other character, because you have more mana to work with.

Again, you're twisting the narrative here. The bonus ES from Hierophant doesn't necessarily help your argument if I'm advocating having it be turned into extra life instead. It'll result in the same effective health. The difference here is if it is turned into extra life, it will benefit from Life regen nodes along with the vast majority of the effective health being in 2 pools rather than 3. And in a point for point basis between life and ES, ES only wins simply because gear can contain far more amounts of it. Attribute wise, str and life wins. As for mana efficiency, Hierophant will only have 50% reduced cost with 100% uptime as taking a single point of damage will result in not full ES.

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You count the stats you "need" instead of looking at how easy/point-efficient they are to get, this is the problem.

Excluding gear, point for point %life is within 3-6 passive points within the range of %ES. You can even try it yourself. Give yourself 82 points in any tree planner, Life keeps up. The only way ES has won has been the high amounts of ES available on gear.

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The amount of ES you walk around with depends on the gear you use, and the investments that you make into ES. So you really have made no point here. I will add that if you pick up Ghost-reaver, instead of ZO and leech to life, you might as well ditch the idea of playing hybrid, and go full CI, or low-life, which Hierophants can do comfortably as well, even with a lorica.

You speculated 4k ES. That's not a lot of ES. Without vaal pact, you can only leech so much in a certain amount of time. And again, if you pick up ZO and do not have the points in life regen to scale it, it's wasted. So again, your build is requiring 4 different stats to scale effectively and several notable passives.

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This is where you are wrong, because, as I said earlier, Hierophants have the arguably best MoM framework of all the ascendancy classes.

Inquisitor needs to stay on that ground to benefit from Pious path, it is mostly useless while mapping, and helps only very little when you face end-game content that you cannot face-tank.

Occultist's recharge, and ES regen on kills looks good on paper, but it is only worthwhile on CI/lowlife builds.

Guardian adds more ES than Hierophant does, but guardian lacks the ability to liberally use skills, unless you invest even more into mana than you otherwise would.

And there is nowhere that I have disuputed Hierophant's strength in MoM. I dispute that other classes can retain comparable strength while having all the other damage/defense/utility bonuses of their Ascendancies.

Inquisitor creates Consecrated Ground on being hit and on kills, and on-demand with Sulphur flask. That's far more uptime than waiting for ES recharge just from simply not taking damage, especially in the case that your ES becomes fully depleted.

For Occultist: How is it only worthwhile on ci/lowlife builds? There's faster start of ES recharge available in the tree close by which shortens the time necessary to take advantage of it. You also regen ES on kills. This is far better than having to build up considerable Life Regen and then take Zealot's Oath.

As for Guardian, The Templar starting tree has very close to it, nodes that increase maximum mana along with reducing mana costs, and %life nodes along with reducing mana costs. This can total up to 37% reduced cost while retaining tankiness and more auras, auras that Hierophant cannot spare due to needing as much mana for MoM. And a guardian does want to invest in mana as more mana reserved=more ES.

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Last league I made an SRS totemer that facerolled just about anything you can imagine, including abyss, core, and colloseum. It could run all map mods, including bloodmagic, no regen whatsoever. Guess what? It was a Hierophant. So really, Hierophant is pretty darn good.

Again, other builds do it better. A Necromancer can go down the ES/Hybrid/MoM path and deal considerably more damage than you while retaining relatively the same tankiness. Just because you did it on a weaker Hierophant does not mean Hierophant is fine. There's still the case can SRS can be done on something like a Guardian, utilizing auras to further boost SRS.

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As for me pigeonholing builds: Nah screw that. If you're unable to use this class properly that is your problem. You're throwing numbers around that may look good on paper, but that's not where this game is played, believe it or not.

In every example of your defenses, you keep bringing up ZO, ES nodes, etc. You need Life regen to keep ES going, or Ghost Reaver and Vaal pact to keep ES going, Life to boost life, Mana to boost mana, and ES to boost ES.

That's several stats you'd have to keep invested in nearly every build resembling this, all of which would be identical. That's pigeonholed. Again, I'll reiterate. The build that requires a fewer number of distinctive stats is freer to pursue other options in gear and passives. Streamlining Hierophant Sanctuary of Thought into a mana->life conversion frees up a lot of points and a lot of gear.

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You can look at other builds like you do now, and be like: This build does that thing better than Hierophant, and other one does the next thing better, but really you're not looking at Hierophants as a class, you're looking at something that other classes do.

So, whatever man, have it your way. If you think people who actually used this class in higher tier content are all wrong, and you doing only pen and paper work, are smarter than the rest: So be it, I don't care.

The reason for that is because the Hierophant doesn't have much that the other classes can't already do with either comparable or higher effeciency while retaining all the other bonuses of their Ascendancy.

The only true strength Hierophant has is Illuminated Devotion, which I'm not proposing changes, and Sanctuary of Thought, which does need a change.

if only you have had any personal experience about stuff you write these essays about..

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sidtherat написал:

if only you have had any personal experience about stuff you write these essays about..

Post a Shaper video with you as hybrid. My responses are in equal magnitude to responses to me.

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Tsokushin написал:

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sidtherat написал:

if only you have had any personal experience about stuff you write these essays about..

Post a Shaper video with you as hybrid. My responses are in equal magnitude to responses to me.

The Shaper is pretty DoT-heavy, meaning MoM would not be that useful. Who makes an MoM build to kill shaper anyway?
I would rather see an Uber lab or Atziri kill video.

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Tsokushin написал:

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sidtherat написал:

if only you have had any personal experience about stuff you write these essays about..

Post a Shaper video with you as hybrid. My responses are in equal magnitude to responses to me.

you have provided NOTHING besides napkin math. your experience with this game is limited to reading wiki and watching others playing. i have more hybrid characters than you have level 20/20 gems.

you really cannot see that people WITH experience are not really with you on this one? yet you still think you are right? so man up and prove it - your lvl91 character can be respecced, make a hierophant and PROVE that it sucks. we will tear it apart and prove you wrong.

as for the videos - i could do a video for you but you seem to be the 'goalpost moving type' so it makes no sense to waste my time

in short: this entire thread is a giant waste of time with miniscule entertainment component. it contains ZERO useful information yet lots of ideas based on napkin math


you are telling us that planes are impossible because.. they.. are.. heavier.. than.. air!