Bad mechanics and player retention -core mechanics that need a major rework

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Lord_Tao написал:

You should read my point on the lab again. I didn't say anything about the concept. Only that making the traps do a percentage of life is a bad idea. Navigating traps and dying to missteps is fine, but dying because you don't have the correct information of where the traps "really are" is bad gameplay.

the traps are really easy to see, and their patern fairly easy to learn. I think you're wrong there... Trap are doing exactly what they need to do. Kill exiles that are not careful enough. If they would do base dmg... it would just be a gear check or resistance check. Just stack some HP and regen and walk through the traps. But! since they do dmg on your hp percentage, now you have to be careful no matter what. It's not a gear check... and it do exactly what it need to do, and it does it very well.

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diablofdb написал:

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pneuma написал:

I think you have a hard time with games that can be lost.

I'm sure you'll claim it's bad game design, but punishing losses are something that are actually sought out and preferred. Most modern games can't be lost in any appreciable way, and can eventually be beaten with sheer persistence and no planning or skill. Your paragraph on the labyrinth makes your stance extremely clear.

Similarly, it's not a problem that ES-based builds die to stuns. It's a minor problem that it takes too much defensive investment for life to be worth a damn, but the top end of any defensive setup is supposed to be fallible in some way. Godhood is the goal, but it should be an unattainable one.

Exactly, as an old gamer I've always enjoyed the rush and excitement of trying to complete the next level in Castlevania or Megaman. Dying was painful, having to start over could really fuck you up.


So you had to step up your game, learn the mechanics and become better. I think the older generations of video games were harder and more punishing. And most old gamer enjoyed these. And we have to keep in mind, there's a very big amount of the players base that are currently playing POE that are old gamer coming from Diablo 1 and 2.

And if we get rid of those mechanics that could cause that player base to leave the game.


Just the experience penality when you die in softcore, I always see a thread about why we should remove it. Meanwhile I remember Diablo 1 you would lose every single piece of gear when you die, and had to go back in the dungeon where you died to get it back. This was intense and stressful..... and great.

I think you make the assumption that I am not an old gamer. I have played Castlevania (never played mega man because I didn't own the console at the time). Also my Kali reg# is in the 9000s for those truly old internet gamers out there.

His point jumped to the conclusion about loosing, where my point wasn't about good game design challenging the player, but of GGG not having their philosophies in line and issues which cause bad gameplay experienced.

Diablo 1 you played through on gear you found, and part of the challenge was to get the gear back. Duping items in that game made you a god. To draw comparisons, POE is at the point where it assumes you have the best gear, yet, oddly enough, you aren't supposed to have access to all the best gear. POE is at the point where game balance assumes you have gear that is all "of the zodiac" or "of the whale".


Diablo 2, which POE is built to recreate a similar experience, also played well on self found gear. Through trading you could make a build around that one neat unique item. However in POE, you need to pick the best in every item slot, and be forced to build around a large HP pool. This on its own is fine, but there are elements, and bad choices on GGG's part which put up road blocks to smooth game play. There is a big difference between challenging game play where you die, and poor game mechanics or development decisions which hold you back from enjoying the game, or playing it entirely.

sooo your point is?

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diablofdb написал:

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Lord_Tao написал:

You should read my point on the lab again. I didn't say anything about the concept. Only that making the traps do a percentage of life is a bad idea. Navigating traps and dying to missteps is fine, but dying because you don't have the correct information of where the traps "really are" is bad gameplay.

the traps are really easy to see, and their patern fairly easy to learn. I think you're wrong there... Trap are doing exactly what they need to do. Kill exiles that are not careful enough. If they would do base dmg... it would just be a gear check or resistance check. Just stack some HP and regen and walk through the traps. But! since they do dmg on your hp percentage, now you have to be careful no matter what. It's not a gear check... and it do exactly what it need to do, and it does it very well.

I think you need to run the lab on a marginal connection if not a bad one. I am talking about desynch here, combines with the poor decision to make traps based on percentage of life.

I am talking about looking at the traps, studying their pattern, and dropping dead when you aren't visibly near one because the information your client has isn't correct. I will say it again, hardcore deals with desynch and other such problems by over leveling their character so they have a buffer when these things do happen. Having traps do a percentage of life counters over-leveling which is the only way to deal with having a marginal connection.

To be clear, the rest of the game is playable on a bad connection, with a few anomalies here and there, but the lab is completely unplayable. Also while on a good connection there has still been a problem with some of the North American servers with bad bouts of lag the last few months.

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diablofdb написал:

sooo your point is?

"There is a big difference between challenging game play where you die, and poor game mechanics or development decisions which hold you back from enjoying the game, or playing it entirely."

well I disagree with you... desync is no longer a problem in the game


and secondly trap are great since they introduce the importance of "player skills" not just gear checking.


and I'm sorry but.... games shouldn't be designed around a few individual who have bad connection... but around the majority. And the majority and play the game pretty well. So why no push it further.


and..... you dying doesn't mean "bad mechanics"

Only if you're playing HC you need large life. I used to do Uber atziri when she first came out with 4K life. The build was literally called Yolo Whirl lol - made 95 with it.

Exceptionally skilled players like Mathil can make anything work on hardest content. 5L 4500 life etc doing shaper/uber. Trust me I tried some of his builds and dont do as well.

Bottom line only HC needs to over compensate in life department

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diablofdb написал:

well I disagree with you... desync is no longer a problem in the game


and secondly trap are great since they introduce the importance of "player skills" not just gear checking.


and I'm sorry but.... games shouldn't be designed around a few individual who have bad connection... but around the majority. And the majority and play the game pretty well. So why no push it further.


and..... you dying doesn't mean "bad mechanics"

Like I said certain elements of the lab should be left in hardcore mode. That way all players have a choice, not just the majority. Players who want it can choose to play it, while leaving other players not held hostage by problems.



"you dying doesn't mean "bad mechanics"" This suggest you didn't read what I said. I listed what is a bad mechanic and why. Please address the arguments I make and if you disagree with them counter them with logical arguments, not logical fallacies.

I red what's you have wrote... I just don't agree with it. I like the game how it is, and I'm happy with the direction it's taking.

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diablofdb написал:

Trading is ok, maybe some QOL improvment would be neat, but stop trying to make it change to an auction house, not gonna happen. And many people would leave the game.

People will leave the game if they can buy something without a lot of interactions with afk, busy or fake traders? Really?

Trade right now is the worst part of the game.

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diablofdb написал:

Lab is great and most player enjoy it. Just a minority that keep voicing their opinion over and over and over again. Not gonna change soon. Most people are good with it.

'Labyrint' is awful. First of all: it's not a labyrint, because after first run in the day - you exactly know that awaits you, because lab not change everytime. With poelab.com you do not even need to go there to understand how difficult it is today. Also helm enchant: almost 400 variations with full random proc per use the fucking device.

People say that 'lab is ok' only because chest in final room provide great benefit. Remove that and lab becomes the place to gain ascendancy points only.

Also don't mess 'good' with 'profit'. Lab is profit content, but don't good.