It's time to remove the Town Portal scroll

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TP scrolls, on the other hand...I've already stated my case as to why its service is no longer necessary.

TP scrolls serve a purpose, if you don't want to use them, then slot the gem in a slot and use it. Only summoners really struggle to the extreme of it not really being an option.

Also worth mentioning with ID scrolls is they teach new players not to ID and haul back every piece of crap that drops. If items dropped identified or if there was simply an ID button, you’d see major efficiency losses for newer players and major efficiency gains for experienced players. It would not be good.

I don’t feel that way about portal scrolls, but they do have some similar effects with their early drop rates encouraging new players to not go back to town too much. I think if they introduced a scrolless portal ability as a reward for killing kitava it would be just fine since mapping limits you in other ways.

Disagreement is not blindness nor a lack of thought, goetzjam. It's disagreement. But sure, let's look at those issues.

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goetzjam написал:

ID scrolls are the lowest form of currency in the game, they serve as a foundation that almost every other currency follows.

Yep, and the lowest currency is now something else instead. That isn't a problem. Make things like transmutes a bit more common to allow for those early game purchases, but that doesn't hurt anything - people already have transmutes coming out their ears and that doesn't cause problems. Adjust the vendor currency chain scales a little if need be; no need for some massive explosion in the availability of chaos orbs or whatever.

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goetzjam написал:

Furthermore, ID scrolls serve a purpose of preventing loot filters and bots from seeing stats on items as they drop. This is important because it rewards people for picking up the item, iding it and if they want dropping it back on the ground.

It's important (?) that people perform a ritual of picking up and dropping items? I don't think that's important to the game even now, but in a system without identification, that behaviour is clearly not important.

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goetzjam написал:

One can also mention an spec that isn't play that much, like animate weapon

Good excuse to retool AW into something less massively clunky. Positive effect.

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goetzjam написал:

Also in regards to iding items, even d3, which is about as casual as much as humanly possible, still keeps unique items unid

This isn't an "issue". If you want to make the argument that GGG should do things because D3 does them, then feel free, but I'm pretty sure you don't.

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goetzjam написал:

Furthermore, both ID scrolls and portal scrolls serve as early game progression tools,

I don't know what exactly you mean by "early game progression tool" - identifying items doesn't progress me through anything in particular - but this sounds like a repeat of the "it's the lowest currency" point. Either something else is now the "early game progression tool", or whatever kind of progression you're referring to is now no longer necessary.

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goetzjam написал:

would make botting easier, would enable loot filters to dumb down looting even further and would ruin at least one spec in the process. It removes a possible market for unid items, removes the challenge from them, removes the unid aspect of various things like vinktars flask, the staffs, various chest pieces, ect.

Making botting more efficient when botting is by nature already ridiculously efficient is not really a meaningful escalation in my eyes.

"Dumbing down" is elitist nonsense; picking up items off the ground isn't some profound intellectual activity. But hey, if GGG doesn't want to remove filters, or limit their functionality, they can. Personally I think the clear appeal of item filters suggests that sorting through lootsplosions is actually not the interesting activity some designers maybe used to think it is, and it seems like a healthier idea to take that as a hint toward better designs than an opportunity to smear filter use.

Removing a market for unidentified items isn't a problem. The very fact that such a market exists is just markets doing what they do: adapting to whatever happens to be available. They'll continue to do that, whatever gets added to or removed from the game over time.

Who finds right-clicking an ID scroll a meaningful challenge?

Unique item property lists are just part of the game like any other, they're not unchangeable foundational pillars of it. GGG's recent change to traps meant removing a property on Sunblast, for instance. That's okay. We shouldn't force stagnation on the game to 'protect' items.

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Vesuvius079 написал:

Also worth mentioning with ID scrolls is they teach new players not to ID and haul back every piece of crap that drops.

I'd say backpack space limitation is what teaches you not to haul everything back to sell. ID scroll limitations teach you not to identify everything. Those lessons are related, but they're separate - after all, you can haul back and sell unidentified items. So in a game without ID scrolls, the "don't haul everything back" lesson will still get taught, and the "don't ID everything" lesson is, by nature, no longer something you need to teach.

Yeah....you didn't address the points at all. Just a bunch of nonsense replies because you actually think that it doesn't matter.

You are wrong and removing markets, builds, dumbing down the game in the process is not something GGG should ever do.

You find no value in the balance that these things hold, I do.


In terms of TP scrolls refer to the not going back so much, refer to the fact that they already have a way to make it so you dont need to hold them.

Back to the topic of TP scrolls...

So far in this thread:

Arguments in favor of removing TP scroll:

-They're screen clutter
-Picking them up is a pain in the ass
-Opening the inventory every time to use it is a pain in the ass

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Arguments against removing the TP scroll:

-Early game progression tool
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At the moment, this seems pretty clear-cut to me. The cons of the TP scroll far outweigh the single benefit.

I'm not going to count "you can use portal gem" as a valid argument against removing the TP scroll, since it doesn't point out a benefit for the existence of TP scrolls. It's just stating that they personally don't care either way because it doesn't affect them. More importantly, when you do use a portal gem the TP scroll loses all purpose for existing so it's more of an argument in favor of removing the TP scroll if anything.

Sadly so can't I agree at all...

Arguments in favor of removing TP scroll:

-Current trend among newer games to not have TP scrolls
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Arguments against removing the TP scroll:

-Early game progression tool


None of the things you listed in favor of removal are valid from my point of view.
So yes, a totaly different point of view... but thats fine.

Is there supposed to be some great swath of people confused about "early game progression" in games like Titan Quest, Diablo 3, Grim Dawn etc?

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goetzjam написал:

There are so many problems with removing id scrolls and tp scrolls and the fact that many of you don't think deeply enough about it before blindly following people is amazing.


Lets take a look at a few of the issues:


ID scrolls are the lowest form of currency in the game, they serve as a foundation that almost every other currency follows. They give value to things that would otherwise have nothing.

Furthermore, ID scrolls serve a purpose of preventing loot filters and bots from seeing stats on items as they drop. This is important because it rewards people for picking up the item, iding it and if they want dropping it back on the ground. This part could be like d3's method, where you can do it all at once and isn't dependent on being a currency, but in absolutely no form or fashion should rares or uniques always drop id'd. In fact the only way they drop id was a one off race event and magic items have a specific unique that enables it.


One can also mention an spec that isn't play that much, like animate weapon, specifically animate weapon totems and point to why i'd rares or uniques would very much be a bad thing.



Also in regards to iding items, even d3, which is about as casual as much as humanly possible, still keeps unique items unid, although that matters very little when you have access to hacks that see the item stats when they are dropped.


Furthermore, both ID scrolls and portal scrolls serve as early game progression tools, perhaps in the grand scheme of bad players that don't know how to progress properly they don't serve the same purpose as experienced players an people in a team.



So removing ID scrolls 100% would be a mistake, would make botting easier, would enable loot filters to dumb down looting even further and would ruin at least one spec in the process. It removes a possible market for unid items, removes the challenge from them, removes the unid aspect of various things like vinktars flask, the staffs, various chest pieces, ect.

Bullshit from start to end.

Sure, Wisdom scrolls and Portal scrolls are early form of currency but they are not usable for any form of transaction worth its time to carry such transaction over. Just make simple test, can you convert Wisdom or Portal scrolls into Exalt orb? No, you cant. Noone sane would trade their Exalt orb for 1000s and 1000s of Portal scrolls. You might see someone desperate to buy scrolls for an Alchemy or Chaos orb but that is more related to the fact picking these scrolls is such an annoyance and waste of time rather than it being legitimate trading currency transaction. Remove this hassle and there will never be another transaction like that because there is no perceived value in these scrolls. Trading and crafting currencies are completely independent from value of scrolls, or no value of these scrolls, because there is no practical way to convert these trade-able currencies to scrolls and back. You can buy infinite amount of scrolls for your Alchemy or Chaos orbs but you can not do it the other way around as there is no demand for those scrolls.

I recognize potential issue with rare and unique items would drop as identified as it would increase amount of quality items available in the system and cause inflation across the board. There would absolutely be shift in value across the market as new items would appear on the market that previously were not picked up. However, this is just another indication how archaic and outdated PoE loot system is. Why there are low level item bases still dropping in red tier maps? Why we need to have 10 or so tiers for every mod on an item? Why there are 100s and 100s of items dropping in maps while nearly every one of those items is useless? POE need loot revamp more than skill revamp. There were band-aid solution deployed in the past, ie. loot filter, but GGG should instead look at loot in a complex manner rather than offering half-baked fixes.

If there is a worry that items being identified as they drop might lead to increase in botting or other automation, GGG should be able to prevent tools such as loot filters access to info on the items such as type of prefixes and suffixes. If a tool can not automatically check, you would have to look at every time individually, which would be still highly impractical.

This discussion is also more about Portal scrolls rather than Wisdom scrolls. There might be some valid points to keep Wisdom scrolls and their function in the game, there is no such argument for portal scrolls.

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Bullshit from start to end.

Actually the only bullshit is from your post not mine, lets investigate.

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Sure, Wisdom scrolls and Portal scrolls are early form of currency but they are not usable for any form of transaction worth its time to carry such transaction over. Just make simple test, can you convert Wisdom or Portal scrolls into Exalt orb? No, you cant.

Once upon a time when the game was slower and focused more on killing bosses for drops, rather then mass slaying monsters people absolutely did buy wisdom scrolls.

What has changed since then? GGG added div cards, diviners boxes, buffed up unique drop rates, trivialized access to higher tier bosses, power creeped the game significantly.

So once upon a time you absolutely could trade up by selling id scrolls for chaos, using chaos to buy exalts. These days not so much, but it absolutely is important to look at what would happen if you removed either.

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no demand for those scrolls.

Because loot filters also enable people to just show or make almost transparent, also the removal of quality getting consumed for fuses on chest\weapons means that there is absolutely a surplus of those around, leading to a surplus of ID scrolls for the current pace of the game.

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I recognize potential issue with rare and unique items would drop as identified as it would increase amount of quality items available in the system and cause inflation across the board. There would absolutely be shift in value across the market as new items would appear on the market that previously were not picked up. However, this is just another indication how archaic and outdated PoE loot system is. Why there are low level item bases still dropping in red tier maps?

Because you and I don't get to decide what other people determine they want. What if someone wants a higher level crude bow for some build, due to the lower requirements of the weapon, it makes it easier to craft for +3 and instead of using a staff and losing out on offhand stats they can use a quiver and enable some nice interactions. This was really popular during essence league and still a viable option for certain builds.

Bashing the loot system a game is based on, makes you wonder why you are playing the game in the first place. No one gives 2 fucks about other games being more "current" because the fact of the matter is we aren't playing poe because its the most current or up to date ARPG, we are playing it because its one of the more complex ones that doesn't pigeon hole you into certain builds (at least not as hard as other games are.

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Why we need to have 10 or so tiers for every mod on an item? Why there are 100s and 100s of items dropping in maps while nearly every one of those items is useless? POE need loot revamp more than skill revamp. There were band-aid solution deployed in the past, ie. loot filter, but GGG should instead look at loot in a complex manner rather than offering half-baked fixes.

The RNG nature of the mods and the tiers are important for the quest to find an upgrade or make a sick item. GGG has introduced so many tools to give you ways to get 1 promised mod forceably with essences, while also still enabling you to use a master mod to craft something on. Using prefixes\suffixes can't be changed, scouring, essentially enabling eternal like crafting methods. Having beastcrafting with similar properties.

So to complain that you can even find a shit tier item in a higher level map is just proof to me you have no grasp on the deeper understanding of how RNG favors a longer, more in depth quest for finding good gear.

And your very support for all items to dropped identified makes it clear to me you don't want to put forth any effort to learn tiers, make choices, you just want a loot filter to remove any and all possible effort, just so you can speed clear the next map that much faster.


People like you would be fine with an AH, this isn't some shot in the dark, this is a fact. You don't care about longevity, you just want instant gratification as fast as possible.



For what reason I don't know, having empty fun in reaching goals extremely fast will ultimately lead to the downfall of this game. Casualisation of games is a travesty and if someone doesn't stop them, people like me will have nothing left to play.

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If there is a worry that items being identified as they drop might lead to increase in botting or other automation, GGG should be able to prevent tools such as loot filters access to info on the items such as type of prefixes and suffixes. If a tool can not automatically check, you would have to look at every time individually, which would be still highly impractical.

This is far more impractical of a design then dropping them unid. Because if they are dropped id, except certain sexant mods or that one chest for magic items, you already have identified it and checked if you wanted it or not. So if you can't filter by tiers or mods on item via loot filter you are actually just fucking the looting process even further. Its a lose\lose situation to remove the identification process in an ARPG game. That is an undisputed fact.

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This discussion is also more about Portal scrolls rather than Wisdom scrolls. There might be some valid points to keep Wisdom scrolls and their function in the game, there is no such argument for portal scrolls.

The argument for portal scrolls doesn't have as much merit as id scrolls, but the fact of the matter is, keeping them as is, just makes sense. It gives something for ID scrolls to go into, it gives people a way to get out instantly. If you are suggesting that everyone just have a button that they click for portal, then it removes the purpose of portal gem, something people currently build around. If it isn't instant, then you are just forcing more people to log out and possible die to dropped packet, instead of clicking on the portal.

This is one of those arguments where you can't win. Both ID scrolls and TP scrolls have purpose in the game, if you don't like picking up a single fucking portal every map, then you need to consider what the fuck you are doing with your life. Make a simple change and have it so all bosses always drop at least 1 portal scroll, that way when you kill the map boss at the end of a map you have your portal scroll.

But if you look deeper you see you pickup things like transmutes, whetstones, ect now currently, those same things could easily and quickly be sold to vendor for id scrolls, then used to purchase portal scrolls. You literally never have to pickup an id scroll or portal scroll if you don't want to, but the fact they exists and serve purposes currently is proof they need to stay as is.

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goetzjam написал:

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This discussion is also more about Portal scrolls rather than Wisdom scrolls. There might be some valid points to keep Wisdom scrolls and their function in the game, there is no such argument for portal scrolls.

The argument for portal scrolls doesn't have as much merit as id scrolls, but the fact of the matter is, keeping them as is, just makes sense. It gives something for ID scrolls to go into, it gives people a way to get out instantly. If you are suggesting that everyone just have a button that they click for portal, then it removes the purpose of portal gem, something people currently build around. If it isn't instant, then you are just forcing more people to log out and possible die to dropped packet, instead of clicking on the portal.

This is one of those arguments where you can't win. Both ID scrolls and TP scrolls have purpose in the game, if you don't like picking up a single fucking portal every map, then you need to consider what the fuck you are doing with your life. Make a simple change and have it so all bosses always drop at least 1 portal scroll, that way when you kill the map boss at the end of a map you have your portal scroll.

But if you look deeper you see you pickup things like transmutes, whetstones, ect now currently, those same things could easily and quickly be sold to vendor for id scrolls, then used to purchase portal scrolls. You literally never have to pickup an id scroll or portal scroll if you don't want to, but the fact they exists and serve purposes currently is proof they need to stay as is.

I'm just gonna respond to this part since I really don't care about the ID scroll argument.

Right now your arguments can be accurately simplified into, "TP scrolls need to stay in the game because it has a purpose. Its purpose is in its value. It has value because it has a purpose". This clearly doesn't add anything to the discussion, but let's break it down anyways just in case there's some doubt:

"Because it can be changed to other currency" is not a valid argument in favor of TP scrolls' existence, because you can just change the drop rates for other currencies if the current balance matters so much(though I would argue that it doesn't matter so much). As an example, you can change all current TP scroll drops into ID scroll drops and the market will stay exactly the same.

"Because other currency can be changed into TP scrolls" is not a valid argument against all three points listed so far in favor of removing the TP scroll, since all it's doing is shifting focus. "Picking up TP scrolls is a pain in the ass" just changes to "Picking up other items and exchanging them into TP scrolls is a pain in the ass".

"Because it gives a way to get out instantly" is the only thing you've said that is a valid argument for TP scrolls' existence. However, it's comparing a game world that has TP scroll with a game world that has no TP method at all, which is not something that anyone is suggesting. We're talking about replacing it with a Town Portal hotkey.