D4 as the antidote. Can ya just stop w/ that plz?

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Nulledout написал:

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xSTGx написал:

PoE got where it is by basically improving on every problem of every Diablo game.

PoE got to where it is because there is/was no competition once D3 folded.

That was a long post but I want to specifically address this point, because there's a very important distinction that needs to be made.

PoE didn't get where it is by improving on D2 (the game it was based on). It got where it is by adding *more* to D2.

That is not always an improvement. And this couldn't be clearer than in one particular aspect of the game: Rare items.

GGG decided that they wanted MORE on items. More affixes. More types of affixes. More, MORE, MOOOOORE! This has, for sure, resulted in much more powerful and diversified items. It has also resulted in a situation where, earlier and earlier in a character's career, picking up rare items becomes a literal waste of time. You can gamble your gold away in D2 to get magic items that you can conceivably use. You can't spam chaos orbs (which would be the equivalent) to get s**t in this game, it has to be done through the overbloated, over-engineered crafting system.

You can argue whether it's better or not based on the much wider variety of items and their interactions, but you'd be hard pressed to convince anyone that the combinatorial explosion that has made rares on the ground literally worthless is an "improvement".

"More" isn't always "better". Except when it comes to sandwiches. Always add more ingredients if you have them.

I had to finish a whole pack of Danish Salami yesterday. That was far too much for one sandwich.

But half a pack of Danish Salami, half a pack of pastrami, some lettuce, tomato, mustard, cheese...yeah, that I could do.

Maybe Path of Diablo is the solution? Clearly D2R wasn't -- I played and really enjoyed it but I think it really did show just how far we've come since then. And PoE, too much of too much. Grim Dawn did its own Titan Quest thing; D3 was D3; Wolcen was D3 minus the budget; Last Epoch has some great ideas but the package is bland.

So ignoring early PoE, does DII actually have a true successor? Or is it like Akira? No successor, perfectly fine as it is, influenced a whole generation after it. That, to me, defines a classic. A great work that is not just the first of its type, but also the last, maybe imitated but never superseded. See also: Guild Wars 1; Portal (1+2 could be a single game); Tetris; Chess; Pastrami.

And there's nothing wrong with that. We should all hope that DIV might be similarly ensconced in the halls of history. After Blizzard's past performance, it'd be a nice change. I'm all for nice changes.

The food analogy has brought to mind none other than Gordon Ramsay. Love him or hate him (he literally can't make a good grilled cheese - google it, he truly can't), there is one thing that he has brought back to the world of cooking - sanity.

I remember one episode of his Kitchen Nightmares, UK edition (the less shouty, more interesting cousin of the brash American adaptation), where a French Chef really wanted a Michelin star, and was serving dinners with nine dishes, each of which had upwards of 20 ingredients - and said ingredients were so ridiculously elite that he was flying in live seafood from France all the way to Scotland.

Gordon's position was clear, what the hell are you doing when you have such incredible ingredients? Cook them perfectly, add some contrast to finish the dish, send it off to the customer.

D2R truly brought back the elegant simplicity of D2. If you ask me, the Lord of Destruction expansion already fugged up what was an already perfectly good balanced meal. Uniques went from being "different" that could or could not be used to build alternative characters, to simply better than any rare you could roll (for the good ones, that is). Every amazon was running Buriza Multishot, absolutely depressing. Further patches did improve things a bit, but they were always careful with how they added power creep (then came the crazy runewords).

Want another example, that still lives to this day? +Skills affixes. Rares or uniques, you could never get more than +2. But magic items (and only magic items) could get +3 to one of the characters' skill trees. This did present an interesting dilemma because, for some builds, +skills were the absolute best way to scale up damage (the Poison Javazon, for instance, was ravenously hungry for +skills).

Imagine if PoE did that. 3.21, they introduce a new drop for Vaal side areas. Magic, and only magic, amulets that drop corrupted from Vaal vessels and can have +3 to specific types of gems, plus a random affix if lucky. A potential step up for certain builds compared with double +1 from top end amulets today. By 3.26 there would be a 20-step way of gambling how to increase the power of these amulets to add more affixes, replace implicits, and altogether make them even more powerful. GGG literally can't help themselves.

So maybe the Diablo way reached its peak with D2, or maybe it hasn't. What I truly believe at this point is that GGG are not the ones to find out. Ruthless is nothing but a crude way to recapture the spirit of what the Diablo way was. It's a lot more fundamental than that. They need to either accept it, or drop the baggage entirely and create a new way that better fits what we have today.

Maybe what they really need is a dyed-in-the-wool neckbeard who hates everything, and whose only job is to keep them in check.

EDIT: Missed a comma.

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Nulledout написал:

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xSTGx написал:

PoE got where it is by basically improving on every problem of every Diablo game.

PoE got to where it is because there is/was no competition once D3 folded.

PoE got to where it is because Perpetualpath of Experiment says you are not allowed to have fun.

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Foreverhappychan написал:

I had to finish a whole pack of Danish Salami yesterday. That was far too much for one sandwich.

But half a pack of Danish Salami, half a pack of pastrami, some lettuce, tomato, mustard, cheese...yeah, that I could do.

Maybe Path of Diablo is the solution? Clearly D2R wasn't -- I played and really enjoyed it but I think it really did show just how far we've come since then. And PoE, too much of too much. Grim Dawn did its own Titan Quest thing; D3 was D3; Wolcen was D3 minus the budget; Last Epoch has some great ideas but the package is bland.

So ignoring early PoE, does DII actually have a true successor? Or is it like Akira? No successor, perfectly fine as it is, influenced a whole generation after it. That, to me, defines a classic. A great work that is not just the first of its type, but also the last, maybe imitated but never superseded. See also: Guild Wars 1; Portal (1+2 could be a single game); Tetris; Chess; Pastrami.

And there's nothing wrong with that. We should all hope that DIV might be similarly ensconced in the halls of history. After Blizzard's past performance, it'd be a nice change. I'm all for nice changes.

It's the other way around. POE has nothing to do with D2 at all. I assume you know flappy birds? POE is the flappy birds of the genre. It's masochistic to the point that people feel obliged to complete it (whatever that means).

D2 is a classic because of the atmosphere and innovation it offered at the time.

I'm looking forward to D4 because I'm pretty sure I'm getting my 100$ : )

Poe is not in a perfect state nor unplayable state.
It's nicely balanced and fine for those who enjoy it.
Some changes like ability "balance" changes or a rework of a lot of unique items would be nice. But even in the current state the game offers more variety in every aspect compared to the other arpg games on the market.

Not every publisher has interest to follow the "simplify everything and make it as casual friendly as possible" zoomer train.

For D4 let's hope it's not another over hyped release of a trash game.
Hopefully they don't continue with the same shit they did in D3. A endless paragon grind for main attributes just to add another 0 to already way too high damage numbers is just boring. Same as the limitations of builds/skills that are actually viable in "endgame".

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DarthSki44 написал:

In fairness, most casual, average, and generally fed up PoE players will just leave without saying a single thing.

The concurrency numbers for PoE will be brutal, for who knows how many leagues. Likely a 50% to two thirds reduction for a couple a seasons at a minimum, (GGG better hope it isnt worse than that) and then let's see how D4's quarterly live service goes.

PoE 4.0 might bring some folks back, but remember it's just a new campaign, with a shared endgame (the same things you have been doing for years). I really dont see this as a game changer, or living up to that PoE2 moniker.

It's very possible that PoE's market run is over, and they don't ever fully recover to the numbers they are currently churning out. It's been a good run though. We will find out here soon, very soon.

I will say if D4 is good to excellent, and PoE league concurrency is a ghost town, Exilecon will be awkward as fuck.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E3XinwzIcIc&ab_channel=Osterberg501


I'm keeping an eye on recent D4 reveals. I'm almost certain that D4 won't match depth and quality of PoE on so many aspects, not by a long shot.
Amount of work and attention to detail that's been put into PoE is staggering. We're used to it so long term players don't even notice much of it, but when you break down piece by piece of the game, it really is mind-blowing. It's not something literary any arpg can achieve without years of development thru trial and error.

D4 is built on stuff they can make strong points without years of work. That is terrain, lighting, common animations and ofc cinematics.
On everything else they will not be able to match PoE.
The more I see the more I'm sure of it.

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Pashid написал:

Not every publisher has interest to follow the "simplify everything and make it as casual friendly as possible" zoomer train.

For me, this is the essence. PoE has never been a very casual friendly game, and it has never really tried to be. Sure, from Legion to Expedition, the power creep had run its course and made the game easier than ever, but it got eventually "reset", both with positive and negative consequences.

Anyhow, what I KNOW I will miss from D4, is the ability to do "something different", even if its costly as hell. Can I make a build using X, and make it completely different from other people using X skill? Can I spec into different defenses and offenses? Personally, I really do not like the 'forced' open/shared world nor word events. And 'every' skill balanced around cool downs? Not a fan.

But one thing is certain: A LOT of players will jump ship and play D4. That's a no-brainer. It's Blizzard - and it's the biggest franchise name in the genre. The question will always be "for how long". How long will it keep players wanting to create a unique build? How long will it keep players wanting to (ab)use an economy? How long will it keep the players that actually like PoE crafting?

People think D4 is going to kill PoE? Just wait until the D4 refugees start showing up lol.

Really can't wait for another shallow itemization, shallow build options and shallow endgame in a form of endless paragon leveling and greater rift farming. And there's always a chance that it will follow Diablo: Immortal monetization model. Will gladly necro this post when everyone will get bored with D4 in like 3 months.