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???????? Hardcore players don't have the right to progress, grind, farm, trade, and such ? What ?
You think Hardcore players just play -to die- ??
Of course they have the right to do all that. But reaching the end should require absolute mastery of the game and near perfect execution throughout (along with a healthy bit of luck).
Look at Borderlands 2: there are people who have beaten the game all the way through the hardest levels (OP10) - so four complete playthroughs of the game -deathless.
That took them hundreds of hours of direct attempts, after hundreds more playing and mastering the game.
Very few people have ever achieved that feat: THAT is a flex.
I'll say it again: If regular players (not the top 10% playing eight hours a day, and not the bottom 10% putting in a couple hours on the weekend) are not dying regularly - if they can go ten, twenty maps without a death - then the game is too easy and needs to be rebalanced.
Yeah right. So having the right value of defense to not get one shoted, tank a big hit, use a pot and reposition, and thus, survive : that's bad for the game because you should have died, or else it's killing the challenge of the game ????
You say going 10-20 maps without dying is a problem for the game. Is that a joke ? Again, do you have any clue what hardcore players are doing in arpg or do you have to keep comparing it to some completely self-made challenges in games not designed to do so ?
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Сообщениеdwqrf#07177 янв. 2025 г., 15:33:16
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This is the best feedback we've had so far about time spent vs XP penalty compared to other axis of progression, so thank you very much for that.
Now let me ask you this :
Why do you want do reach level 100 ?
Do you think it's an imprtant progress step in this game ?
Do you think it's always mandatory to reach for A game ?
Are you sure it's mandatory for THIS game ?
If it's about closure, couldn't you settle at any other level instead, by choice ?
If it's a challenge, are you willing to keep trying ?
And on a side note, how tanky/damage/balanced oriented is your build, overall ?
This feedback is all over the place as are plenty of other penalty alternatives. The problem is anyone who supplies it is told they are a baby and should go play D4. I posted almost the exact same thing in a different thread and got that response about 4 times. Most people aren't as stubborn as me when it comes to feedback haha
Before I answer your questions I should make it clear this actually isn't about me. Its about me wanting to see the game I like do well. If XP loss never affected me I would still be arguing this. I have never had any expectation of hitting 100. Maybe I will get there but it honestly isn't impacting my opinions (beyond the subconscious bias none of us can get rid of). Its more about fun and making progress in skill or power.
1. Because its another vector for progress and the feeling of progress and gaining power is a big part of this game. And a game like this needs to make you feel like you are always making progress. That progress might be gear, XP, skill, or knowledge but it needs to do that almost every play session. It doesn't and I have my doubts it can do so with XP loss without making other systems too easy.
2. No, I don't. But most of the people defending it are the ones making it out to be. "If other people can get there eventually it doesn't feel like an achievement." If its not a big deal, why does it matter who gets there? Like to my XP debt example, is it really diminishing your achievement when those folks are likely taking 3-5 times as long to get there? Especially since most people who would run into the XP debt penalty often are gonna move on to another game or a league at some point before then anyway. Maybe I just don't get it but there is a weird thing in this thread where it both isn't important and thinking it is shows you don't understand POE, but also its very important to protect the "achievement" of getting there.
Sorry, I am not sure I understand what you are asking.
This is a follow up to the above, sorry again.
I could, but that is not how human psychology works. If you put a max level, its going to become part of closure for some % of people. But honestly, I think hitting the max level is a red herring. Lets say there was no max level, you could level infinitely, and the best players all agreed the entire game is playable level 75 max as long as you keep gearing up. XP loss would still make people disincentivized to keep playing because of the time wasting feeling.
I am willing to keep trying if it doesn't feel like a waste of time. The best part about Campaign is that the current setup incentives you to git gud and try again. When you lose to a boss you start right out side their lair. Your options are to try again or (if you feel under powered) to go grind on the respawned enemies and then try again. The game is point blank telling you to challenge yourself, try again, and figure out the issue. There were more than a couple of times in campaign where all of the sudden i was helpless. And I immediately went "okay, what am I doing wrong" once I changed build, once I realized my gear now sucked, and at least once I realized this was my fault for missing the obvious trigger an attack was coming. Thats fucking great! That is the exact experience I want, the game going "Hey man, you can do this. Figure it out and try again." Now, this is endgame. It needs to be harsher and death needs more meaning, totally on board. But choose a penalty that encourages you to keep challenging yourself, not one that makes the monkey brain go "you wasted your limited time".
As for my build, when I first hit endgame it was too much of a glass cannon. So i switched it up to be significantly more tanky (I think the end result was like 3-4 times ES as an example). And worked a bit but i was unable to kill things quickly so they still over ran me. So, I went back to figure out the issue and quickly realized the experimenting phase required me to either be okay with feeling like I lost time, or going super down in levels, go very slow, see what dropped try things out. So I stopped and rolled up a new char. I would love to go back and spend hours figuring out what was wrong and get over it. The game is point blank telling me not to do that.
Последняя редакция: adrenrocker#5143. Время: 7 янв. 2025 г., 15:45:51
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Plenty? Elder Scrolls, Civ, Tetris Forever, Legend of Zelda, most things? I just don't think of them as accomplishments, especially when they require tons of time. See, it doesn't bother me that i have a lot of free time on my hands and I dedicate it towards gaming. I just also don't think it means anything else.
Not judging you at all. Was just interested in what you played.
I don't view video games as an accomplishment either. It's entertainment, enjoyment, and usually a relaxing experience for me. Games that have too many mechanics, or too high of a difficulty, aren't usually on my radar. Unless of course, it's done well. Like Elden Ring/Dark Souls.
I'm currently playing a decently modded morrowind game, been enjoying that over dying in PoE and losing XP. I've got a few hours each evening to play something. It's nice enjoying games that respect my time more. The over-all experience is just more enjoyable.
I think a lot of people are at a point in their life, where being good at a video game is one of the few things they feel accomplished in. It's how I used to act with video games when I was younger, because I was really good with them. And I was at a point in my life where I didn't really have much else going on. Once I got more in my life to fill it up, I realized that keeping that mindset was unhealthy. I was constantly stressed and upset in video games. Rather than playing them for enjoyment. It really made things unenjoyable. I lost the spark.
Sorry, I mixed you up with someone else. Its my day off and I am responding to too many threads at once.
Thats really interesting to hear and good to know. That was never my personal experience and always weirded me out. (outside of game tournaments or something. which is a bit different).
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Of course they have the right to do all that. But reaching the end should require absolute mastery of the game and near perfect execution throughout (along with a healthy bit of luck).
Look at Borderlands 2: there are people who have beaten the game all the way through the hardest levels (OP10) - so four complete playthroughs of the game -deathless.
That took them hundreds of hours of direct attempts, after hundreds more playing and mastering the game.
Very few people have ever achieved that feat: THAT is a flex.
I'll say it again: If regular players (not the top 10% playing eight hours a day, and not the bottom 10% putting in a couple hours on the weekend) are not dying regularly - if they can go ten, twenty maps without a death - then the game is too easy and needs to be rebalanced.
I disagree. If you put in the time to make a build with gear strong enough to trivialize the difficulty then you absolutely should be able to. No one is arguing that the game is perfectly balanced. its about a penalty that happens if you die. You SHOULD be trying to break the game. If the average player is capable of doing this, then they deserve to be able to. GGG has a way of finding a counter to your meta, and they have been doing this in some pretty cool(and not so cool) ways for a long time.
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Сообщениеogmersault#48067 янв. 2025 г., 15:52:32
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Why do you want do reach level 100 ?
Do you think it's an imprtant progress step in this game ?
Do you think it's always mandatory to reach for A game ?
Are you sure it's mandatory for THIS game ?
If it's about closure, couldn't you settle at any other level instead, by choice ?
If it's a challenge, are you willing to keep trying ?
And on a side note, how tanky/damage/balanced oriented is your build, overall ?
This feedback is all over the place as are plenty of other penalty alternatives. The problem is anyone who supplies it is told they are a baby and should go play D4. I posted almost the exact same thing in a different thread and got that response about 4 times. Most people aren't as stubborn as me when it comes to feedback haha
Before I answer your questions I should make it clear this actually isn't about me. Its about me wanting to see the game I like do well. If XP loss never affected me I would still be arguing this. I have never had any expectation of hitting 100. Maybe I will get there but it honestly isn't impacting my opinions (beyond the subconscious bias none of us can get rid of). Its more about fun and making progress in skill or power.
1. Because its another vector for progress and the feeling of progress and gaining power is a big part of this game. And a game like this needs to make you feel like you are always making progress. That progress might be gear, XP, skill, or knowledge but it needs to do that almost every play session. It doesn't and I have my doubts it can do so with XP loss without making other systems too easy.
2. No, I don't. But most of the people defending it are the ones making it out to be. "If other people can get there eventually it doesn't feel like an achievement." If its not a big deal, why does it matter who gets there? Like to my XP debt example, is it really diminishing your achievement when those folks are likely taking 3-5 times as long to get there? Especially since most people who would run into the XP debt penalty often are gonna move on to another game or a league at some point before then anyway. Maybe I just don't get it but there is a weird thing in this thread where it both isn't important and thinking it is shows you don't understand POE, but also its very important to protect the "achievement" of getting there.
Sorry, I am not sure I understand what you are asking.
This is a follow up to the above, sorry again.
I could, but that is not how human psychology works. If you put a max level, its going to become part of closure for some % of people. But honestly, I think hitting the max level is a red herring. Lets say there was no max level, you could level infinitely, and the best players all agreed the entire game is playable level 75 max as long as you keep gearing up. XP loss would still make people disincentivized to keep playing because of the time wasting feeling.
I am willing to keep trying if it doesn't feel like a waste of time. The best part about Campaign is that the current setup incentives you to git gud and try again. When you lose to a boss you start right out side their lair. Your options are to try again or (if you feel under powered) to go grind on the respawned enemies and then try again. The game is point blank telling you to challenge yourself, try again, and figure out the issue. There were more than a couple of times in campaign where all of the sudden i was helpless. And I immediately went "okay, what am I doing wrong" once I changed build, once I realized my gear now sucked, and at least once I realized this was my fault for missing the obvious trigger an attack was coming. Thats fucking great! That is the exact experience I want, the game going "Hey man, you can do this. Figure it out and try again." Now, this is endgame. It needs to be harsher and death needs more meaning, totally on board. But choose a penalty that encourages you to keep challenging yourself, not one that makes the monkey brain go "you wasted your limited time".
As for my build, when I first hit endgame it was too much of a glass cannon. So i switched it up to be significantly more tanky (I think the end result was like 3-4 times ES as an example). And worked a bit but i was unable to kill things quickly so they still over ran me. So, I went back to figure out the issue and quickly realized the experimenting phase required me to either be okay with feeling like I lost time, or going super down in levels, go very slow, see what dropped try things out. So I stopped and rolled up a new char. I would love to go back and spend hours figuring out what was wrong and get over it. The game is point blank telling me not to do that.
This is extremely valuable feedback, thank you very much for your constructive contribution.
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Сообщениеdwqrf#07177 янв. 2025 г., 15:52:39
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Why do you want do reach level 100 ?
Do you think it's an imprtant progress step in this game ?
Do you think it's always mandatory to reach for A game ?
Are you sure it's mandatory for THIS game ?
If it's about closure, couldn't you settle at any other level instead, by choice ?
If it's a challenge, are you willing to keep trying ?
And on a side note, how tanky/damage/balanced oriented is your build, overall ?
This feedback is all over the place as are plenty of other penalty alternatives. The problem is anyone who supplies it is told they are a baby and should go play D4. I posted almost the exact same thing in a different thread and got that response about 4 times. Most people aren't as stubborn as me when it comes to feedback haha
Before I answer your questions I should make it clear this actually isn't about me. Its about me wanting to see the game I like do well. If XP loss never affected me I would still be arguing this. I have never had any expectation of hitting 100. Maybe I will get there but it honestly isn't impacting my opinions (beyond the subconscious bias none of us can get rid of). Its more about fun and making progress in skill or power.
1. Because its another vector for progress and the feeling of progress and gaining power is a big part of this game. And a game like this needs to make you feel like you are always making progress. That progress might be gear, XP, skill, or knowledge but it needs to do that almost every play session. It doesn't and I have my doubts it can do so with XP loss without making other systems too easy.
2. No, I don't. But most of the people defending it are the ones making it out to be. "If other people can get there eventually it doesn't feel like an achievement." If its not a big deal, why does it matter who gets there? Like to my XP debt example, is it really diminishing your achievement when those folks are likely taking 3-5 times as long to get there? Especially since most people who would run into the XP debt penalty often are gonna move on to another game or a league at some point before then anyway. Maybe I just don't get it but there is a weird thing in this thread where it both isn't important and thinking it is shows you don't understand POE, but also its very important to protect the "achievement" of getting there.
Sorry, I am not sure I understand what you are asking.
This is a follow up to the above, sorry again.
I could, but that is not how human psychology works. If you put a max level, its going to become part of closure for some % of people. But honestly, I think hitting the max level is a red herring. Lets say there was no max level, you could level infinitely, and the best players all agreed the entire game is playable level 75 max as long as you keep gearing up. XP loss would still make people disincentivized to keep playing because of the time wasting feeling.
I am willing to keep trying if it doesn't feel like a waste of time. The best part about Campaign is that the current setup incentives you to git gud and try again. When you lose to a boss you start right out side their lair. Your options are to try again or (if you feel under powered) to go grind on the respawned enemies and then try again. The game is point blank telling you to challenge yourself, try again, and figure out the issue. There were more than a couple of times in campaign where all of the sudden i was helpless. And I immediately went "okay, what am I doing wrong" once I changed build, once I realized my gear now sucked, and at least once I realized this was my fault for missing the obvious trigger an attack was coming. Thats fucking great! That is the exact experience I want, the game going "Hey man, you can do this. Figure it out and try again." Now, this is endgame. It needs to be harsher and death needs more meaning, totally on board. But choose a penalty that encourages you to keep challenging yourself, not one that makes the monkey brain go "you wasted your limited time".
As for my build, when I first hit endgame it was too much of a glass cannon. So i switched it up to be significantly more tanky (I think the end result was like 3-4 times ES as an example). And worked a bit but i was unable to kill things quickly so they still over ran me. So, I went back to figure out the issue and quickly realized the experimenting phase required me to either be okay with feeling like I lost time, or going super down in levels, go very slow, see what dropped try things out. So I stopped and rolled up a new char. I would love to go back and spend hours figuring out what was wrong and get over it. The game is point blank telling me not to do that.
This is extremely valuable feedback, thank you very much for your constructive contribution.
On that same note, thank you for being the second person on the internet who sees its feed back and not just whining.
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Strong disagree here. We are not here to provide business advice. The forum is early access feedback, not early access business model help. We give feedback, and play the game, or dont. EVERYTHING ELSE YOU DESCRIBED HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH IT. its up to them what they think will help them in the long run, not us. These are not our decisions to make. How many people you think theyll lose, who invests in their company, who their lead designer is, whether or not they have a coffee shop in their office, or get blowies at break time. None of that matters here, in this forum. Give them feedback on your early access experience. Discourse within the community is healthy as long as its on topic and in good faith.
You didn't understand a single word I said, and on top of that you felt single targeted by everything I said. The latter is my bad because I used "you" all over after quoting you, but it was just only general thinking of a general "you" including even me. I was just quoting you to follow up on your topics.
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СообщениеVinsdvalh#02477 янв. 2025 г., 16:05:40
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Something I'd like to mention is that I'm not against the exp penalty remaining in the game if certain hazards are more visible to players.
If I die to something, I need to know what it was, or how am I supposed to avoid it and learn from it? There needs to be a death log. What just one shot me - did I miss one of those dinky little purple orbs of crap? Stand in a patch of something I couldn't see for too long or miss some on-death effect as my firewalls were obscuring them? Or did I die to a nasty attack from a mob I need to prioritise next time?
I got to T15 maps with my Infernalist witch and started getting wrecked. Fair enough, I'm grinding out lower levels which I did quite comfortably, obviously my gear is not quite there yet. But I would like to know, when I do die, what damage caused it, or the only way I can improve is to seek more energy shield and hope next time I have enough to absorb the hit.
Sometimes I don't even know I'm fighting a rare until my minions take longer than usual to kill it. I really think some of the telegraphing could use being more obvious if failing means losing exp.
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Strong disagree here. We are not here to provide business advice. The forum is early access feedback, not early access business model help. We give feedback, and play the game, or dont. EVERYTHING ELSE YOU DESCRIBED HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH IT. its up to them what they think will help them in the long run, not us. These are not our decisions to make. How many people you think theyll lose, who invests in their company, who their lead designer is, whether or not they have a coffee shop in their office, or get blowies at break time. None of that matters here, in this forum. Give them feedback on your early access experience. Discourse within the community is healthy as long as its on topic and in good faith.
You didn't understand a single word I said, and on top of that you felt single targeted by everything I said. The latter is my bad because I used "you" all over after quoting you, but it was just only general thinking of a general "you" including even me. I was just quoting you to follow up on your topics.
I understood your point. Looking at it through the lens of a business customer relationship in order to try and avoid complacency. What I’m saying is no, look at it through the lens of a PLAYER, and provide feedback on the GAME. There is absolutely no need to view this through the scope of business as a player. The business side of things is up to GGG. Whether they fail or not is independent of us as players. That’s entirely on them. You can want them to not fail, or want them to, but it holds zero weight on providing feedback to the gameplay.
Последняя редакция: ogmersault#4806. Время: 7 янв. 2025 г., 16:27:12
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Сообщениеogmersault#48067 янв. 2025 г., 16:22:37
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I understood your point. Looking at it through the lens of a business customer relationship in order to try and avoid complacency.
Fair enough, you did understand, another my bad for this one.
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What I’m saying is no, look at it through the lens of a PLAYER, and provide feedback on the GAME. There is absolutely no need to view this through the scope of business as a player. The business side of things is up to GGG. Whether they fail or not is independent of us as players. That’s entirely on them. You can want them to not fail, or want them to, but it holds zero weight on providing feedback to the gameplay.
That's what everybody is doing, but in a traditional business you don't have open interference from other clients during the feedback process. You say that "Discourse within the community is healthy as long as its on topic and in good faith." and it's very right but it never happens like that. Every review that calls for a change of design is turning into a lavish debate of personal interests, as if GGG was reading and counting points. I think this constant result in the feedback process is doing more harm than good. And instead of having a clear sound of "everybody likes this" or "everybody hates that", it's just noise ...
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СообщениеVinsdvalh#02477 янв. 2025 г., 16:59:19
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