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So by "wasting the entire day" you mean to say the player didn't : have fun ; progress in skill ; progress in knowledge ; dropped gear ; dropped currency ; progress in his atlas ; limit-tested his build.
None of it ???
Didn't have fun: For some a big part of the fun is the progression, so yeah feeling like you were sent backwards kills a lot of the fun.
Didn't progress in Skill: Maybe? Skill progression is not linear and you might have just discovered your gear is suddenly bad.
Didn't progress in Knowledge: Again, maybe, maybe not. I know to watch out for on death mechanics, sometimes I make a mistake and walk or dodge into it. Mistakes happen and they aren't always learning experiences, especially when the game is repetitive like this.
Didn't progress in Dropped Gear: Its POE, its super easy to go a couple of hours without seeing anything thats better than what you currently have equipped. Doesn't even take that much bad RNG.
Dropped currency: See above. And even if the currencies you do want drop, they are only good for crafting and trading. Two other systems people don't exactly like but GGG seems to.
Progress in his Atlas: Maybe but the atlas does not fulfill the same sense of progress because its infinite. If the campaign had XP loss, the Campaign map would cause of acts and eventual finish.
Didn't limit-test their build: Again, maybe. Was that a careless mistake, or the game trying to tell me something? Is the death an issue of the build i am using? Is my issue that I my gear isn't good enough anymore? Is my gear and build fine, but I need to, as the kids say, git gud? Is everything fine and just made a careless mistake? XP loss disincentivizes experimentation, figuring out what you did wrong and figuring out where you need to improve.
So yeah, it actually is really easy to feel like you wasted your time, especially if you have a limited amount of time to play in a night. And maybe it is silly to feel like you wasted time when you were having fun moments ago, but welcome to human psychology. You can't tell people not to feel that way, just doesn't work.
To be very clear, I don't want the game to be ez, want a death penalty that makes my limited available time feel worth it and encourages me to experiment and challenge myself. Xp loss encourages me to play incredibly cautiously and be super over leveled which is a much worse experience. Switch it to XP debt and, personally atleast, a lot of this goes away.
This is the best feedback we've had so far about time spent vs XP penalty compared to other axis of progression, so thank you very much for that.
Now let me ask you this :
Why do you want do reach level 100 ?
Do you think it's an imprtant progress step in this game ?
Do you think it's always mandatory to reach for A game ?
Are you sure it's mandatory for THIS game ?
If it's about closure, couldn't you settle at any other level instead, by choice ?
If it's a challenge, are you willing to keep trying ?
And on a side note, how tanky/damage/balanced oriented is your build, overall ?
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Сообщениеdwqrf#07177 янв. 2025 г., 14:57:14
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*i know im gonna take allota heat from saying this?
buuuuut if they did remove xp pen on death altogether? there wouldn't be much to flex when you finally get to lvl 100 would there
It's a video game. Its already not a flex. Not even mentioning the fact that even "Playing right" hitting 100 takes forever as is. It just kind of looks like you had a lot of free time on your hands.
What other games do you enjoy my man?
I play Rimworld for fun. That game has some amazing mods and is quite challenging, but in a fun and engaging way. It's pretty fair unless you crank the difficulty up too high.
I also enjoy sitting back with ARK Survival Evolved. The base game is pretty good. But I've added some mods that make it a Horde survival game, where you build a base and need to defend against dozens of super strong dino's. It's hella fun. Gives you good reason to go out and find big strong dino's to tame, and to reinforce your base with gathered materials.
Plenty? Elder Scrolls, Civ, Tetris Forever, Legend of Zelda, most things? I just don't think of them as accomplishments, especially when they require tons of time. See, it doesn't bother me that i have a lot of free time on my hands and I dedicate it towards gaming. I just also don't think it means anything else.
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it's absolutely awful. a had a free time today so i decided to spend it farming some maps, started at lvl94 24% exp, about 50 maps later i'm at 7%. And only once i died taking more than i could bite. Every other time was due to random freezes, network lagg and extremely poorly designed maps, like ritual in crypt map in tiny corridor without any space for maneuver.
I guess that's how ggg rewards players spending time and money on their product.
I also get a strong feeling the only good way to progress through the game is buying an insane build through rmt and destroying screen after screen running 30 maps an hour.
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СообщениеtheYontu#49897 янв. 2025 г., 15:02:51
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If a group of investors starts to decide they are going to take over development decisions for ggg then the game has no hope. Nothing good comes from appeasing random bean counters besides getting money. Blizzard has proven this, Ubisoft has proven this. The entire state of triple a gaming has proven this. Pandering to your investors is the WORST reason to make game development decisions.
Tencent has done well so far because they DONT do this. Why would they suddenly start now? They already have their own client for China with the freedom to make swathing changes to the game for path of exile 1 (full blown auction house controlled by bots that have ruined every leagues economy at the speed of light). Why would they suddenly change the format that’s been nothing but successful for them?
People need to stop acting like they know what kind of impact their opinions have on the game as a whole. We provide feedback, it’s not up to us to decide we know what’s best for the game as a,”product”. As the consumer we shouldn’t even be looking at it from a business point of view. That shit has nothing to do with us. All this vocal minority, you will lose x amount of players, yada yada, has no basis when it comes to giving feedback. You’re just trying to make it sound like your opinion has more credence than someone else’s. Knock that dumb shit off.
I agree with you 100% about everything you said but i'd like to add some nuances.
1) it can be tricky to compare "successful" from our point of view and "successful" from tencent point of view. It's well know that companies like to make money but they also really like to make "more money than last year". This need for growth can become tricky over time, and if your revenue is stable, the way to ensure this growth is to cut cost and then a vicious cicle starts. Also, regarding this, promises and objectives could have been made between Tencent and GGG in terms of investment and revenue.
2) i think we still should keep "the business point of view". We are consumer as you said and we are GGG's client. As clients we are entitled to review the product and to requests for changes. In a business realtionship, you usually don't go snoop around other client's requests and tell them they're wrong. It is a star shaped model of relations, client talk to business, business talk back, and that's it.
My point: with a system where you suggest a change and the whole community comes take a dump on your opinion is that it's counter productive as it drives you away from giving ideas by extension possible good ideas from sprouting.
The next step of that is GGG not having to do better. Never challenged. Every request for change from community is pushed away by community. You're going to have PoE 2. And on release they're gonan release Torment. 4 months later, Legion, 4 months later, Incursions, etc , etc , etc
You're gonna have a mirror of PoE 1 with minimal effort from GGG. That's why I advocate to stop thinking GGG is your big bro and think GGG as a business who owes you a better game even when it's great.
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СообщениеVinsdvalh#02477 янв. 2025 г., 15:03:43
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*i know im gonna take allota heat from saying this?
buuuuut if they did remove xp pen on death altogether? there wouldn't be much to flex when you finally get to lvl 100 would there
It would be if the game was challenging and you had to earn your way there.
In fact, that would be much more of a flex, IMHSHO at least.
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СообщениеMouser#28997 янв. 2025 г., 15:04:18
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Plenty? Elder Scrolls, Civ, Tetris Forever, Legend of Zelda, most things? I just don't think of them as accomplishments, especially when they require tons of time. See, it doesn't bother me that i have a lot of free time on my hands and I dedicate it towards gaming. I just also don't think it means anything else.
Not judging you at all. Was just interested in what you played.
I don't view video games as an accomplishment either. It's entertainment, enjoyment, and usually a relaxing experience for me. Games that have too many mechanics, or too high of a difficulty, aren't usually on my radar. Unless of course, it's done well. Like Elden Ring/Dark Souls.
I'm currently playing a decently modded morrowind game, been enjoying that over dying in PoE and losing XP. I've got a few hours each evening to play something. It's nice enjoying games that respect my time more. The over-all experience is just more enjoyable.
I think a lot of people are at a point in their life, where being good at a video game is one of the few things they feel accomplished in. It's how I used to act with video games when I was younger, because I was really good with them. And I was at a point in my life where I didn't really have much else going on. Once I got more in my life to fill it up, I realized that keeping that mindset was unhealthy. I was constantly stressed and upset in video games. Rather than playing them for enjoyment. It really made things unenjoyable. I lost the spark.
Последняя редакция: Akedomo#3573. Время: 7 янв. 2025 г., 15:15:34
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СообщениеAkedomo#35737 янв. 2025 г., 15:09:37
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1) it can be tricky to compare "successful" from our point of view and "successful" from tencent point of view. It's well know that companies like to make money but they also really like to make "more money than last year". This need for growth can become tricky over time, and if your revenue is stable, the way to ensure this growth is to cut cost and then a vicious cicle starts. Also, regarding this, promises and objectives could have been made between Tencent and GGG in terms of investment and revenue.
2) i think we still should keep "the business point of view". We are consumer as you said and we are GGG's client. As clients we are entitled to review the product and to requests for changes. In a business realtionship, you usually don't go snoop around other client's requests and tell them they're wrong. It is a star shaped model of relations, client talk to business, business talk back, and that's it.
Agree with your two first points. Tencent for sure now has a say in anything GGG does, and for sure Tencent don't want the game bleeding players new or veterans.
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The next step of that is GGG not having to do better. Never challenged. Every request for change from community is pushed away by community. You're going to have PoE 2. And on release they're gonan release Torment. 4 months later, Legion, 4 months later, Incursions, etc , etc , etc
You're gonna have a mirror of PoE 1 with minimal effort from GGG. That's why I advocate to stop thinking GGG is your big bro and think GGG as a business who owes you a better game even when it's great.
Agreed even more with this bit.
GGG thought would got it easy in PoE 2 because already has a "fanbase"... playerbase is a hard concept, because players will leave if the game s*cks, a "fanbase" will suck it up.
GGG told PoE 2 would be different from PoE 1... first thing they do is link the core concept of the game - Ascendency - to old divisive contents from PoE 1 (Sanctum and Ultimatum), try push the mediocre Ruthless mode that only 0.1% (CC/Streamers) of players engaged and bloated the endgame with Ritual, Delirium, Breach and Expedition... all old mechanics from PoE 1.
Forumites keep saying "git gut" "skill issue"... is now time to GGG "git gut" and show some skill to implement new things instead of old PoE 1 mechanics in the game.
Последняя редакция: Fhrek#4437. Время: 7 янв. 2025 г., 15:15:45
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СообщениеFhrek#44377 янв. 2025 г., 15:14:07
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League competition to 100lvl shouldn't ever be that super important that it ruins the gameplay experience for majority of people.
yeah, those should be treated like speedrunning. Doesn't really matter who's first so long as someone else might do it faster.
Exception being ofc those insane hyper optimized short level speedruns where the difference between the top scores are literally in the milliseconds.
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Сообщениеmrfox123#75957 янв. 2025 г., 15:18:59
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???????? Hardcore players don't have the right to progress, grind, farm, trade, and such ? What ?
You think Hardcore players just play -to die- ??
Of course they have the right to do all that. But reaching the end should require absolute mastery of the game and near perfect execution throughout (along with a healthy bit of luck).
Look at Borderlands 2: there are people who have beaten the game all the way through the hardest levels (OP10) - so four complete playthroughs of the game -deathless.
That took them hundreds of hours of direct attempts, after hundreds more playing and mastering the game.
Very few people have ever achieved that feat: THAT is a flex.
I'll say it again: If regular players (not the top 10% playing eight hours a day, and not the bottom 10% putting in a couple hours on the weekend) are not dying regularly - if they can go ten, twenty maps without a death - then the game is too easy and needs to be rebalanced.
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СообщениеMouser#28997 янв. 2025 г., 15:21:00
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If a group of investors starts to decide they are going to take over development decisions for ggg then the game has no hope. Nothing good comes from appeasing random bean counters besides getting money. Blizzard has proven this, Ubisoft has proven this. The entire state of triple a gaming has proven this. Pandering to your investors is the WORST reason to make game development decisions.
Tencent has done well so far because they DONT do this. Why would they suddenly start now? They already have their own client for China with the freedom to make swathing changes to the game for path of exile 1 (full blown auction house controlled by bots that have ruined every leagues economy at the speed of light). Why would they suddenly change the format that’s been nothing but successful for them?
People need to stop acting like they know what kind of impact their opinions have on the game as a whole. We provide feedback, it’s not up to us to decide we know what’s best for the game as a,”product”. As the consumer we shouldn’t even be looking at it from a business point of view. That shit has nothing to do with us. All this vocal minority, you will lose x amount of players, yada yada, has no basis when it comes to giving feedback. You’re just trying to make it sound like your opinion has more credence than someone else’s. Knock that dumb shit off.
I agree with you 100% about everything you said but i'd like to add some nuances.
1) it can be tricky to compare "successful" from our point of view and "successful" from tencent point of view. It's well know that companies like to make money but they also really like to make "more money than last year". This need for growth can become tricky over time, and if your revenue is stable, the way to ensure this growth is to cut cost and then a vicious cicle starts. Also, regarding this, promises and objectives could have been made between Tencent and GGG in terms of investment and revenue.
2) i think we still should keep "the business point of view". We are consumer as you said and we are GGG's client. As clients we are entitled to review the product and to requests for changes. In a business realtionship, you usually don't go snoop around other client's requests and tell them they're wrong. It is a star shaped model of relations, client talk to business, business talk back, and that's it.
My point: with a system where you suggest a change and the whole community comes take a dump on your opinion is that it's counter productive as it drives you away from giving ideas by extension possible good ideas from sprouting.
The next step of that is GGG not having to do better. Never challenged. Every request for change from community is pushed away by community. You're going to have PoE 2. And on release they're gonan release Torment. 4 months later, Legion, 4 months later, Incursions, etc , etc , etc
You're gonna have a mirror of PoE 1 with minimal effort from GGG. That's why I advocate to stop thinking GGG is your big bro and think GGG as a business who owes you a better game even when it's great.
Strong disagree here. We are not here to provide business advice. The forum is early access feedback, not early access business model help. We give feedback, and play the game, or dont. EVERYTHING ELSE YOU DESCRIBED HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH IT. its up to them what they think will help them in the long run, not us. These are not our decisions to make. How many people you think theyll lose, who invests in their company, who their lead designer is, whether or not they have a coffee shop in their office, or get blowies at break time. None of that matters here, in this forum. Give them feedback on your early access experience. Discourse within the community is healthy as long as its on topic and in good faith.
I dont view GGG as,"my big bro". I hold no loyalty to any of them just because they make a game I like. Slippery slope fallacies arent helping your point. Im here to play games, and let them know what i like about them, not to run a business. That seems pretty dumb.
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Сообщениеogmersault#48067 янв. 2025 г., 15:25:41
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