What are your thoughts on the current amount of death penalties in game

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Snorkle_uk#0761 написал:

its a lot. its not at a point i would quit playing but i think in the bigger picture its maybe a bit much?



after hearing jonathan talk about the xp penalty in the interview with ghaz and darth, can be heard here btw

https://youtu.be/pj8FxWMf4V4?t=688


i get why he wants the xp penalty for the lvl100 race, hes probably right.



but i do genuinely think having the penalty start at lvl90 the way jonathan suggests they could do is a better system. we have to lose stuff we care about on death, it has to feel bad, i think we lose enough stuff that up to lvl90 that is enough and actually its better to let people feel like they can learn their build, try hard bosses and lose, learn mechanics etc without losing an hour+ of xp. you just lose the content and the loot.

i defended the xp penalty with a passion in poe1 for 12 years and i still think it is the only mechanic that works in that game for making death meaningful.

i think poe2 has systems that allow for a better way of punishing people with 1 portal content. but i accept what jonathan is saying about the 90-100 grind, i think he makes the point and its right.




so yeah, move the xp penalty to lvl90+ and that would make the system really good imo. keep everything else, balance some stuff around it tho like how often you get to attempt content.

Hurray finally someone was able to find the interview where he said this. Now people can stop saying "GGG won't ever change this so STFU!". Massive thanks for posting this.

They could retain the same incentive not to die by backloading the XP onto Map/Objective completion rather than it all coming from killing monsters. Or giving an XP boost that greatly ramps up for every map completed without dying. And probably lots of other ways they can think of in a single brainstorming session.

There are many ways he could achieve the same thing without forcing players to go backwards which overly impacts those who are not interested in racing and just want to play whatever fun build they have come up with.

He's a smart guy and obviously open to reviewing this. I'm sure they will make an improvement of some sort.

I think that the death penalties wouldn't be an issue if the causes of death wouldn't range so wildly, from spammy-spamm monster attacks that nuke you through all your defenses (water hags come to mind), incessant effects like volatiles plants and such, off-screen missles, off-screen ground slams, poorly tuned, sometimes overlapping, 1-shot boss mechanics, the plethora of ground effects that you don't see because of everything on top of them and, of course, GGG's love for on-death mechanics.

You don't get to learn much when the game aim-assists your attack into the nearest water bubble - other than play with this added "auto-target" penalty in mind at all times. You also don't learn much from dying to something buried in the ground that exploded or when, on top of all the other effects and monsters, some random shaman from off-screen goes on to explode all the corpses. You don't learn how to dodge a 1-shot attack from a boss if the area you're supposed to be safe in gets blasted by a 2nd 1-shot attack that would require you to be outside of it, preferably in the zone where the first 1-shot attack can wipe you, or across the screen somewhere, where there's no way, shape or form that you can reach - aside from time-freeze, maybe.

I'm currently playing hardcore and, well, the death penalty there is self-imposed, but the causes remain the same: 50% player's stupidity, 50% buggy )the titan boss's dagger drag comes to mind), overtuned, poorly telegraphed or invisible monster attacks or mechanics.

So, yeah. If your game has so many issues in this stage of development, maybe ease off some of the punishments. It's nice to be part of the community that tests for issues, but err... maybe you should broaden the scope to go past How fast is the death announcement spawning for you?" and "How clear can you read the death announcement?" texts :D

To be honest, I think 1 portal is silly no matter how you spin it. Boss reset being already alright and maybe a penalty on drop chance with each death, to unjuice the end results. Stick to what you taught us through the campaign, no?

Xp loss is rather irrelephant. Loot loss due to cast-on-death mechanics is dumb though.

I think its fine, it just feels worse because there are other mechanics that are overtuned, etc. Like too many on death effects, too few crafting options, etc.

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Snorkle_uk#0761 написал:

its a lot. its not at a point i would quit playing but i think in the bigger picture its maybe a bit much?



after hearing jonathan talk about the xp penalty in the interview with ghaz and darth, can be heard here btw

https://youtu.be/pj8FxWMf4V4?t=688


i get why he wants the xp penalty for the lvl100 race, hes probably right.



but i do genuinely think having the penalty start at lvl90 the way jonathan suggests they could do is a better system. we have to lose stuff we care about on death, it has to feel bad, i think we lose enough stuff that up to lvl90 that is enough and actually its better to let people feel like they can learn their build, try hard bosses and lose, learn mechanics etc without losing an hour+ of xp. you just lose the content and the loot.

i defended the xp penalty with a passion in poe1 for 12 years and i still think it is the only mechanic that works in that game for making death meaningful.

i think poe2 has systems that allow for a better way of punishing people with 1 portal content. but i accept what jonathan is saying about the 90-100 grind, i think he makes the point and its right.




so yeah, move the xp penalty to lvl90+ and that would make the system really good imo. keep everything else, balance some stuff around it tho like how often you get to attempt content.

Love this idea.
Also, you could just add a 100 race checkbox option when selecting SSF / Hardcore etc...
100 race checkbox ticked = exp loss
Unticked = no exp loss

This way the racers get their race with consequences, the dads / anyone not degenerate gaming can push to 100 without giving up due to 2 steps forward 5 steps back feeling.

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95% of the time it's lack of visual clarity and ground nukes.

I had a complete 1-shot the other day. And I don't mean the 'sort of 1-shot' where you just take lots of damage within a fraction of a second, an actual 1-shot detonation, on a map where nothing else had even damaged me.

I Had been running the map with absolutely no problem the mobs and rares weren't even denting my ES. The a crystallized Rare spawned a blue doughnut when it was on about 5% health that went off with about 0.5 seconds warning from first starting to become visible to detonation.

I know it really was that short because I saved the video and watched it multiple times to make sure I didn't just imagine how fast it was. It's so big that depending where you are when it goes off you can't roll out of it you have to roll into the middle (I assume) which is an interesting mechanic.

If it had just had more warning it would have felt fair and I would have learned from it. But whether through poor visibility when first spawning or just bad balancing on the detonation time, it was absolutely unfair. Even if I had known it was about to spawn I wouldn't have been able to avoid it.

The visibility, detonation time and actual amount of damage were all suddenly way overtuned vs the rest of the map.

Just 1 example, I'm sure there are plenty of others.

Xp penalty - Necessary
Portals - Could be improved
1-try citadels - Utterly stupid with how rare they are

one try citadels?

can't comment on that since I found zero citadels so far at level 92

The death penalties are fine. If you're dying too much, it means you need to improve your gear and/or player skills. Or maybe play another class - for now class balance is out of whack and you may be playing an underperformer.

Too much. Too many soul-sucking road blocks. Having fun? Bam, another on death effect! Map bricked, XP gone, and if I'm really lucky, I see a divine (or worse) on the ground next to my corpse, impossible to reach. All these FU moments one after another make me logout instead of trying again.

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Ankh_13#4218 написал:

The death penalties are fine. If you're dying too much, it means you need to improve your gear and/or player skills. Or maybe play another class - for now class balance is out of whack and you may be playing an underperformer.

"Go play another class" should not be the fix to something that can be fixed in much more fun ways. The fact you felt the need to suggest that speaks volumes of the strength of your argument.

It's about as convincing as the suggestion someone made that the lack of citadels isn't an issue because you can find one by plugging white T1 keys for 3 hours. I mean... sure, it's a workaround. But is that really the gameplay experience anyone wants? That GGG had in mind? No, it isn't.

Lots of suggestions have been made that would retain Jonathan's stated goal without the XP penalty, I have never seen any XP loss defender actually address any of them. Just repeat the same claim that it needs to be there.