Why are only melee punished by weapon specific skill gems?

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Xaxyx написал:

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LostForm написал:

Using a skill that is not supported at all by your gear is basically the same as not being able to use the skill.

No, it is not basically the same. The basic distinction is that you CAN use a spell gem that's not supported by your gear, but you CAN'T use a melee gear that's not supported by your gear. At all, ever.

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Getting a wand with all +spell casting stats in no way raises the effectiveness of your wand attacks. The fact that they can use the skill at all is clearly balanced by the game not letting the skill be effective in damaging opponents when it is not buffed at all by players gearing choices.

I'm pretty sure that even the crappiest wand in the world will spit out Fireballs more effectively than someone else's attempts to use Glacial Hammer with a sword. Do you need me to do the math for you? Hint: one of those calculates out to zero.

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In this game, your offense by and large comes from your gear for every single build in the game. Players choosing to specialize in offense in their skill tree and not relying on gear for offense are quite well balanced by the fact they are going to die,repeatedly, due to a lack of defense. This game allows you to gain enough offensive prowess from gear alone to make defensive specialized skill trees still able to kill monsters. The converse of this is not true. This game will not allow you to survive the enemies in this game if you specialize in offensive skill tree and try to gain defense from gear alone. You will Die horribly, over and over.

Yes, I will die, horribly, over and over. But that'll at least be my choice. My choice, in a game that even you must acknowledge allows for zany, wacky, one-off builds that people manage to crowbar into working -- sometimes very effectively, even though it may at first seem counter-intuitive.

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Therefore, for a spell caster to even be able to use their skills for more than fireworks display or a light show, they need weapons with specific mods. Just because the specific mods they need on their weapon does not change the art work does not change the argument. And spell casters also have to choose different mods for different spell types. Period. They must choose weapons that support their specific skill choices, or they might as well not even use the skill. Casting spells without a weapon equipped, or a 2 handed axe, or w/e does make flashy animations, but those flashy animations will not kill on level monsters in a meaningful way, therefore, they really can not use their skill in relation to the game content.

You can win this game in white gear with a single Fireball gem. You do not NEED spell casting gear to succeed as a spell caster. You do, however, NEED to match your weapon type to a melee gem to be able to kill anything with that gem.

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It is the same boat everyone is in. The mods on melee weapon needed just might so happen to change the art work of the weapon you are holding. Nothing else is really affected in terms of balance. You might not be able to make flashy animations with no wepon, or the wrong weapon type, but in terms of balance against the content, you are no worse off than a spell caster being able to cast a spell while not having a weapon equipped.

You are self-evidently worse off, by merit of the fact that the gem doesn't even work. At all.

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The upgrades to your current weapon are balanced. The hardest to getting a BiS type weapon for your class would have to go:

You don't need "best in slot" to play the game. We're talking about needs here. Not desires, not wants, not blue sky "I spent 87 exalteds on my uber gear" design builds. Just needs. Requirements. Must-haves. There are no must-haves for characters who opt to use a spell casting gem for their main attacks. There IS a must-have for characters who select a melee attack for their main attack: they MUST choose a SPECIFIC melee weapon type from the allowable ones. They CANNOT use that gem without it. No amount of obfuscation will change this simple, stunningly obvious and utterly undeniable fact.

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The fact that melee have to have a specific weapon type, that can roll pure attack mods only is very well balanced out by spell casters needing to roll against hybrid rolls to get gear upgrades.

The fact that melee are FORCED to have a specific melee weapon type, without which they CANNOT USE THEIR SKILL GEM AT ALL, is balanced by nothing whatsoever.

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A wand is not a wand is not a wand.

When is a wand not a wand? Please provide a link to a wand -- any wand in the game, owned by anyone, ever -- with which you CANNOT use the Fireball spell (or any magic attack spell for that matter).

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Spellcaster wands and wand attack wands are very different. And this is what I mean by you have dilluted your own argument. A spell caster can not effectively kill content without a weapon with mods supporting their skills. They can make a light show true...but the monsters are not going to die. It would be very similar in effectiveness to not being able to cast the spell at all, or grabbing a white weapon off the vendor of the right type and trying to kill with melee skills. They are the same in effectiveness.

I'm not addressing effectiveness. I'm not addressing efficiency. I'm not addressing player ability, competence, or understanding of game mechanics. I'm not talking about good players, I'm not talking about bad players. I'm not talking about hardcore, I'm not talking about softcore. I'm not talking about particular Acts, I'm not talking about particular difficulties. I'm not talking about particular fights, particular monsters, particular bosses. I'm not talking about the phase of the moon, the Prime Minister of Norway, or green cheese. I'm not talking about ANYTHING WHATSOEVER except for the following two SIMPLE FACTS:

FACT: You can pick up ANY WAND IN THE GAME, stick it in your hand, and cast Fireball.
FACT: You CANNOT pick up any melee weapon in the game, stick it in your hand, and use Glacial Hammer.

THAT is the sole point of my argument. Any attempts to divert the conversation in random directions will be futile, as I will always, patiently, purposely and purposefully, redirect them back to these two simple, basic, irrefutable facts.

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Xaxyx написал:

...

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LostForm написал:

you can pick up any mace in game and do a ground slam that will pretty much equal the damage of a fireball at base damage.

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The only way your argument would have merit at all is if melee was at a disadvantage in trying to find their best in slot weapon. Melee and spell casters are in a very similar situation in finding their best in slot items.

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Who cares if someone can cast a base damage fireball. It has no relevance in this game at all.

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The fact that a fireball flies across the screen means absolutely nothing. The fireball must be at the least supported by gear (including specific mods on weapons) and good support gems to even make a difference.

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In terms of the game content, there is functionally no difference between shooting a base damage fireball, and using a white vendor bought weapon to do a melee attack. Both of them are absolutely garbage and do not matter to the game, it will swallow the fireballs, and be no different situation.

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You can buy a weapon off a vendor and do your attacks. This is a fact.

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There is never going to be a time in game when you are absolutely unable to do a ground slam, or a lightning strike, or a puncture.

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The weapon restrictions only come into play when you look at effectiveness of the skill. The same is true when you talk about spell casting, or shooting arrows, or using wands. Nobody is ever going to be completely locked out of using any skill in game. Ever. To say a caster can use a spell with no weapon equipped is quite squarely countered with you can do weapon specific attacks with white items that can be bought from vendors.

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Xaxyx написал:

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LostForm написал:

you can pick up any mace in game and do a ground slam that will pretty much equal the damage of a fireball at base damage.

But you CANNOT pick up any sword in the game and do any ground slamming at all.

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The only way your argument would have merit at all is if melee was at a disadvantage in trying to find their best in slot weapon. Melee and spell casters are in a very similar situation in finding their best in slot items.

Who even cares about best in slot? I'd be satisfied with WORST in slot. I'd like to be able to use the most pathetic, cheesy hunk of pointy iron I can find lying around on the beach if the game would just let me slam the ground with it.

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Who cares if someone can cast a base damage fireball. It has no relevance in this game at all.

First level characters might be concerned.

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The fact that a fireball flies across the screen means absolutely nothing. The fireball must be at the least supported by gear (including specific mods on weapons) and good support gems to even make a difference.

Really? It's impossible to kill zombies on the Twilight Strand with a Fireball unless you have gear supporting the Fireball? What, do they just bounce off or something? Ya learn somethin' new every day! I surely will keep that in mind for next race.

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In terms of the game content, there is functionally no difference between shooting a base damage fireball, and using a white vendor bought weapon to do a melee attack. Both of them are absolutely garbage and do not matter to the game, it will swallow the fireballs, and be no different situation.

I don't know about you -- perhaps you have some special deal with GGG that lets you start out at level 50 or something -- but when I make a new character, he starts out pretty much naked. So how he progresses through ALL of the gear stages is extremely relevant to him.

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You can buy a weapon off a vendor and do your attacks. This is a fact.

I cannot buy a sword and use ground slam. That is a fact. Fact, fact, fact.

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There is never going to be a time in game when you are absolutely unable to do a ground slam, or a lightning strike, or a puncture.

There is, in fact, a time when I am absolutely unable to do a ground slam. That time is when a sword is in my main hand.

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The weapon restrictions only come into play when you look at effectiveness of the skill. The same is true when you talk about spell casting, or shooting arrows, or using wands. Nobody is ever going to be completely locked out of using any skill in game. Ever. To say a caster can use a spell with no weapon equipped is quite squarely countered with you can do weapon specific attacks with white items that can be bought from vendors.

Ground slam is pretty ineffective with a sword, I've found -- at all levels, in all areas, against all monsters, with all gear configurations. The skill is, indeed, completely locked out. Go ahead, try it yourself. You may have to borrow someone else's level 1 character or something, though.

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Terrornoid написал:

Plausibility exists within fantasy settings. It's the artists/creators job to stretch that plausibility to cover certain physics that they need to adapt.

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For example, would you really agree that a Grass Pokemon should be resilient to fire? The artist could stretch it, "Grass Pokemon emit a layering of fire resilient ooze all over themselves". I mean, technically, yes they could, but it's one of those things that kinda makes you go "oh wait... that's odd."

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Another example would be some super skinny dude running up and punching the Hulk through 5 buildings. It can definitely happen (it has), but it makes your brain go "why is that able to happen?" instead of just intrinsically accepting it, like if it were Supes punching Hulk instead.

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Creating a mob stunning rift using a dinky little dagger would require some explanation that there really isn't room for in this sort of game. There aren't enough visual ques, like perhaps the character using his fist portion of the dagger to do it. It's just awkward and makes the player go "wait, what?"

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I came to this conclusion after thinking about my last post, but I think a better view would be that Melee Weapons simply have more type options, which makes it look like a divide. There are a disproportionate amount of gems made for bows that makes the player feel like each melee weapon should have those kind of options, which they have close to, but it isn't divided in a way between said melee weapons that makes the player feel as such.

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That was confusing, let's reexplain:

13.1 avg. skill options per melee weapon
12.5 avg. skill options per melee weapon counting only melee skills
Source:

Скрытый текст

http://en.pathofexilewiki.com/wiki/Melee_Skill

3 Skills Shared Between Melee and Ranged
1. Elemental Hit
2. Frenzy
3. Puncture

6.5 avg. skill options per ranged weapon
4 avg. skill options per ranged weapon counting only ranged skills
Source

Скрытый текст

http://en.pathofexilewiki.com/wiki/Category:Ranged_attack_skills
+ 3 Shared Skill not listed, applied properly to bow and wand

As you can see, Melee has double the options of ranged for in house skills, minimum. A better argument would be that Melee weapons generally suck for the "spells" that work with any weapon, but that's only because melee has more options; Wands are to Daggers what Bows are to other (-->) Melee Weapons (<-- all the options).

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I'm terrible at explaining this. :/

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Xaxyx написал:

Interesting analysis. What's even more interesting is when you turn it sideways:

Melee gems: Avg 64.7% of weapon options allowed
Bow gems: Avg 100% of weapon options allowed

Thus, fully one third of the time, on average, a melee gem skill is arbitrarily forbidden from employing the use of any given mainhand melee weapon -- for no particularly good reason.

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LostForm написал:

Oh so you want to talk about before you get to town in the first beach?

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Ok, if you get ground slam...you got a mace, and you can ground slam. GUARANTEED.

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You are never going to be locked out of using ground slam absolutely.

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You will always have the ability to go to a vendor and purchase a white item.

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you will have the option to go to a vendor and buy a white (maybe even blue!!) item that will enable you to use the skill...so you are not absolutely locked out of it ever.

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After your gem of melee can only use one attack at any given time because of gear restrictions, I am done with this thread. You are being rediculous and straw manning everything, and adding no counters to arguments presented except more straw men. This thread is finished.

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wrathmar написал:

You are placing bows in their own class again. Bows are a subtype not a class.