Why are only melee punished by weapon specific skill gems?

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Sickness написал:

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Xaxyx написал:

Bows have no intrinsic attributes. They are thus UNLIKE any other weapon in this regard.

Hi, have you met Axe?

I stand corrected. Ten points for Gryffindor!

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Bows are ranged. That's what makes them different.

And how do magic attacks fit into this model? There are no weapons attached to them at all.

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Xaxyx написал:

And ranged skills that cannot be used by any bow are unlike melee skills that cannot be used by any dagger, insofar as that there are significantly more such melee skills.

There are more such skills only because there are more melee weapons. It's obvious why bows can use almost all ranged skills: Because it's the only ranged weapon except wands.

I left my Dick Tracy decoder ring on my alt. Care to elaborate? Why is it "obvious" that bows should be able to use 87% of ranged attack skills, but wands can only use 33%?

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Xaxyx написал:

You're in for a long ride, then. Hope you brought juice.

Bragging about how ignorant you are. Classy.

My humblest apologies. I thought everybody liked juice.

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Xaxyx написал:

Again, your failure to understand this comes down to the lack of different ranged weapons.
You don't comprehend that a bow user choses not to use heavy strike and infernal blow.

I wasn't aware that a bow user COULD choose to use Heavy Strike and Infernal Blow. Did I miss some patch notes?

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Melee VS ranged balance is obviously very important, but aslong as the skills the mselves are balanced then the weapon restrictions really don't affect the balance very much.

Then why are they necessary?

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Now you are surely trolling. Or do I have to explain that restrictions can be good AND bad?

The vast majority of weapons are melee, so it makes sense.

I already know why these restrictions are bad; hence the purpose of this thread. Care to explain why they're good? Care to explain how the game is improved because you can't use swords with Ground Slam, even though you can use any melee weapon you'd like with Cyclone? How does that "make sense"? (Disclaimer: "It's more realistic" won't avail you terribly much.)

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If we consider the fact that daggers require int and have a intrinsic bonus that is useful for spell casters I would say that how many skills they can use is not the only factor to consider when comparing them to swords.

All the more reason to impose less, not more, restrictions upon their use; all the more reason that lifting these restrictions would help, rather than hamper, melee dagger wielders.

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Xaxyx написал:

My concern, for one, is that the devs will continue to release bow skills that can be used by any bow

Ofcource they will, just like they keep releasing skill that can't be used by bows but can be used by some other weapon type(a single other type or few differend types) and skill that can be used with any weapon type and skill that don't use weapon at all.

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Torguemada написал:

Ofcource they will, just like they keep releasing skill that can't be used by bows but can be used by some other weapon type(a single other type or few differend types) and skill that can be used with any weapon type and skill that don't use weapon at all.

Again I'll remind you that -- unless your interview went well, in which case, congratulations -- you aren't a dev and don't work for GGG. Thus, you cannot speak on their behalf. They may change their minds; indeed, they may read this very thread and reconsider. Contrary to rumor, the devs have made significant design change decisions based on player feedback. And I can quote a dev stating such.

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Xaxyx написал:

And how do magic attacks fit into this model? There are no weapons attached to them at all.

How do elephants and pink hot air baloons fit into this model?
Answer: They don't, because they are not weapons or weapon skills.

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Xaxyx написал:

I left my Dick Tracy decoder ring on my alt. Care to elaborate? Why is it "obvious" that bows should be able to use 87% of ranged attack skills, but wands can only use 33%?

It is obvious that bows can use most ranged attack skills because it's the only ranged weapon that is designed to be used soley for attack skills.

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Xaxyx написал:

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Again, your failure to understand this comes down to the lack of different ranged weapons.
You don't comprehend that a bow user choses not to use heavy strike and infernal blow.

I wasn't aware that a bow user COULD choose to use Heavy Strike and Infernal Blow. Did I miss some patch notes?

He COULD choose to not use bow. So when he chooses bow he chooses to not be able to use heavy strike and infernal blow just like someone who uses swords chooses to not be able to use ground slam.

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Xaxyx написал:

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Melee VS ranged balance is obviously very important, but aslong as the skills the mselves are balanced then the weapon restrictions really don't affect the balance very much.

Then why are they necessary?

Why wouldn't they be? Weapon restrictions are not mean to balance ranged VS melee any more than they are meant to bring on world peace and end hunger.

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Xaxyx написал:

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Now you are surely trolling. Or do I have to explain that restrictions can be good AND bad?

The vast majority of weapons are melee, so it makes sense.

I already know why these restrictions are bad; hence the purpose of this thread. Care to explain why they're good? Care to explain how the game is improved because you can't use swords with Ground Slam, even though you can use any melee weapon you'd like with Cyclone? How does that "make sense"? (Disclaimer: "It's more realistic" won't avail you terribly much.)

I already have! It adds meaningful choice. Otherwise the choice of weapon comes down to a calculation, and as an ARPG it's already full of that.

If "It's more realistic" is not on the table, then why not let all weapons use LA, ice shot etc? What is your argument against that?

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Xaxyx написал:

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If we consider the fact that daggers require int and have a intrinsic bonus that is useful for spell casters I would say that how many skills they can use is not the only factor to consider when comparing them to swords.

All the more reason to impose less, not more, restrictions upon their use; all the more reason that lifting these restrictions would help, rather than hamper, melee dagger wielders.

No, that is not a good reason for it at all.
I would say that for most people who use daggers on their melee the restricions probably just makes it more interesting.

Why do you want to streamline everything?

Full disclosure: I didnt read the whole thread.

However, go and try and stab someone with a fucking club. Then itll all make sense.

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Sickness написал:

How do elephants and pink hot air baloons fit into this model?
Answer: They don't, because they are not weapons or weapon skills.

A shame really, given how much hot air is apparently available.

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It is obvious that bows can use most ranged attack skills because it's the only ranged weapon that is designed to be used soley for attack skills.

And therefore the same principle should apply to daggers, since they're a "hybrid" item serving dual purposes, right? Yet the set of melee skills available to claws is the same set as daggers, just as limited. Your balloon is deflating.

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He COULD choose to not use bow. So when he chooses bow he chooses to not be able to use heavy strike and infernal blow just like someone who uses swords chooses to not be able to use ground slam.

When someone chooses sword, he expects to lose access to ranged skills, since a sword is not a melee weapon. I see no reason for him to expect to lose access to a handful of melee skills as well. That's the elephant in the room, by the way.

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Xaxyx написал:

Then why are they necessary?

Why wouldn't they be?

I asked you first!

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Weapon restrictions are not mean to balance ranged VS melee any more than they are meant to bring on world peace and end hunger.

Then what are they meant for? What purpose do they serve? The cockles of whose hearts are warmed by their existence?

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Xaxyx написал:

Care to explain how the game is improved because you can't use swords with Ground Slam, even though you can use any melee weapon you'd like with Cyclone? How does that "make sense"? (Disclaimer: "It's more realistic" won't avail you terribly much.)

I already have! It adds meaningful choice. Otherwise the choice of weapon comes down to a calculation, and as an ARPG it's already full of that.

How does Cyclone's enabling of every single melee weapon add a meaningful choice to choosing a melee weapon?

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If "It's more realistic" is not on the table, then why not let all weapons use LA, ice shot etc? What is your argument against that?

From the perspective of realism? None whatsoever. Shoot arrows out of your ass if you want to. It's no different than now, where we can shoot Fireballs while wielding two-handed swords. Realism, shmealism.

When you get your first bow, Captain Realism, and pull the string, what happens? An arrow comes flying out! Where did the arrow come from? One can only imagine. Your quiver, you say? But you don't have a quiver. And just how many imaginary arrows does this imaginary quiver contain, anyway, that it never seems to run out? For a game about a guy who gets washed up on a beach, he sure is resourceful.

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Xaxyx написал:

All the more reason to impose less, not more, restrictions upon their use; all the more reason that lifting these restrictions would help, rather than hamper, melee dagger wielders.

No, that is not a good reason for it at all.
I would say that for most people who use daggers on their melee the restricions probably just makes it more interesting.

My math might be off a tad here, but you aren't most people.

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Why do you want to streamline everything?

I don't. I want the overall streamlining level to be even-keeled. Magic casters are streamlined. Bow users have it pretty easy. Melee gets the shaft a third of the time. This is the disparity that I challenge. You can fix it by streamlining melee, or by similarly screwing over archers and casters. Take your pick.

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tramshed написал:

Full disclosure: I didnt read the whole thread.

Full disclosure: your reading habits aren't all that interesting, really.

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However, go and try and stab someone with a fucking club. Then itll all make sense.

You mean this club?

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Xaxyx написал:

You can fix it by streamlining melee, or by similarly screwing over archers and casters. Take your pick.

This is why it's "unfair" currently:
http://imgur.com/A4MLtzQ

They are fixing it. More skills are constantly being added, and more weapons will likely be down the road. When more are added, ranged weapons will have more divided choices like melee does.

This whole thread is very melodramatic.

Not that it aint needed, melee need any love they can find. (but not because they are so UP)


Hoewever melee restrictions, do pose their use. Unless you want every jack and jane using daggers because they are the highest possible dps with power charges. Or casters getting even more unballanced by enabling them to leap out of danger with their wands.


What time has spent here could've been spent on fixing melee as a whole, instead of crying about a non issue.

Fix desync, melees are up to par. Nothing more to add really, its the only thing holding them back, ever.

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Xaxyx написал:

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tramshed написал:

Full disclosure: I didnt read the whole thread.

Full disclosure: your reading habits aren't all that interesting, really.

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However, go and try and stab someone with a fucking club. Then itll all make sense.

You mean this club?

Thats a mace sir.