Why are only melee punished by weapon specific skill gems?

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iamsamsara написал:
I have been waiting for someone else to do this, because I am far too lazy.

Moreso than you may think; someone had already built this chart a few pages ago.

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This proves the entire argument invalid, melee has just as much choice of skills as any other character, no matter what weapon they use!

Yes, let's just stare at a dribble of numbers, ignoring utterly the principle that they actually represent, the precedent they set, the actual collection of abilities to which they're linked, and twenty pages of argumentation to the contrary. That's sound reasoning. I'm almost inspired.

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As a matter of fact as a bow user I am feeling a bit shafted( get it, arrows have shafts! I am funny tonight!). Time to make my own thread whining about bow users not being able to use ground slam, I mean c'mon I should be able to smash my prized bow into the ground, amiright?

About as much sense as the fact that you can spit Fireballs out of your bow, amiright?
GREENS vs. REDS: http://www.pathofexile.com/forum/view-thread/392/page/246#p811501
The Prisoner's Dilemma: http://www.pathofexile.com/forum/view-thread/392/page/262#p813428
Lethal_papercut's discussion with Chris: http://www.pathofexile.com/forum/view-thread/392/page/235#p806542
Totally agree As a melee . Why?

Remove that plz
IGN: SMALLDUCK
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HopTortoise написал:
After reading through all 19 pages of this thread, I have decided to forward the entire contents of said thread to the NSA.

The only possible way to explain this crazed and insane situation would be several individuals exchanging messages in the most safe and secure way they possibly could. Innuendo within a niche video game.

Reported.

edit: This is a joke.


but for real would be just about the only real explanation for why this thread is still going.

unless that guy is really just a crazy person yelling at the wind and the sky, and people actually try to tell him the wind and sky are natural and not out to get him, but he is a crazy person so he keeps on yelling anyways.
Hey...is this thing on?
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LostForm написал:
unless that guy is really just a crazy person yelling at the wind and the sky, and people actually try to tell him the wind and sky are natural and not out to get him, but he is a crazy person so he keeps on yelling anyways.

Oh, don't be so hard on Sickness. He's devoted to his cause. I for one respect his vigilance, if not his flexibility.
GREENS vs. REDS: http://www.pathofexile.com/forum/view-thread/392/page/246#p811501
The Prisoner's Dilemma: http://www.pathofexile.com/forum/view-thread/392/page/262#p813428
Lethal_papercut's discussion with Chris: http://www.pathofexile.com/forum/view-thread/392/page/235#p806542
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Xaxyx написал:
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LostForm написал:
unless that guy is really just a crazy person yelling at the wind and the sky, and people actually try to tell him the wind and sky are natural and not out to get him, but he is a crazy person so he keeps on yelling anyways.

Oh, don't be so hard on Sickness. He's devoted to his cause. I for one respect his vigilance, if not his flexibility.

He's talking about you.
"An it harm none, do what you will"
Don't make him more confused.
Последняя редакция: Sickness#1007. Время: 13 мая 2013 г., 09:57:49
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Torguemada написал:
He's talking about you.

I can see where you might think so. It can often be difficult to turn a critical eye toward those who agree with you. But objectivity is of paramount importance in argumentation. Heck, I dressed down the OP in this very thread quite a ways back.
GREENS vs. REDS: http://www.pathofexile.com/forum/view-thread/392/page/246#p811501
The Prisoner's Dilemma: http://www.pathofexile.com/forum/view-thread/392/page/262#p813428
Lethal_papercut's discussion with Chris: http://www.pathofexile.com/forum/view-thread/392/page/235#p806542
Here's another fun example I've observed when studying the melee gem chart: the Sweep skill. A nifty aoe ability, it seems explicitly designed for the use of two-handed weapons. Its list of allowable weapons is quite small: two-handed axes; two-handed maces; and staffs.

Curiously missing from this short list, however, is the two-handed sword. Why the omission? Well, let's try applying the three rules that the defenders of the current architecture have put forth to explain such an idiosyncracy: Does it promote interesting variety? Is it a principle consistent with weapon-and-skill pairings? Does it make sense, from the perspective of expected behavior? Let's explore each of these questions together, shall we, and see where we end up. Excelsior!

1) Does it promote interesting variety? Going out on a limb, I feel it's pretty safe to conclude that Sweep was designed as a two-handed weapon gem. As such, there's a trade-off baked in: if you want to use the skill, you must use a two-handed weapon. No shield; no dual-wielding. That does sound interesting. Yet mysteriously, two-handed sword is not included in this list. Why not? Is there something special or particular about *this* two-handed weapon that distinguishes it from the others, for which we should exclude it, thereby encouraging the use of the other sorts? Nothing that can be readily discerned, no. Thus I see nothing "interesting" about its exclusion. Sweep is simply made weaker, by merit of having that many less weapons available for its employment, without anything gained by the game in return.

2) Is it a principle consistent with weapon-and-skill pairings? Sweep is, alas, unique among melee gems, insofar as that it's the only melee gem that permits only the use of two-handed weapons. So we have little basis of comparison within its own, distinct niche. We can, however, reasonably compare it to its counterpart, Shield Charge. Shield Charge requires the use of a one-handed weapon since, obviously, it requires the use of a shield in the offhand. Shield Charge, however, allows the use of every single one-handed weapon, from swords to axes to maces to daggers to claws. So this principle doesn't seem consistent.

3) Does it make sense, from the perspective of expected behavior? This is the most subjective of aspects, since it's largely driven by opinion and preference. Thus, one is relegated to simply observing one's own opinion on the subject. I for one would find it perfectly plausible to allow Sweep to be used with a two-handed sword, and was quite frankly stunned when I discovered that it is disallowed. Surely an ability that allows the use of two-handed axes AND two-handed maces should tolerate the use of a two-handed sword to similar effect. So for me, no, this doesn't make sense.

Now perhaps this one, singular example -- Sweep disallowing two-handed swords -- is an aberration. Perhaps it was an oversight by the devs. Perhaps there's some other, hidden meaning behind its conspicuous distinction. Nevertheless, the melee chart is riddled with such inconsistencies. Further analysis reveals no seeming pattern, no single reason behind the madness of melee skill allocation.

Instead, I might conjecture for once, and put forth my own opinion: that each melee skill created was done so independently, at a different point in PoE's history, without due consideration given to the dynamics of melee skill-to-weapon association, let alone melee game play as a whole. This, however, is a situation that can be readily rectified, by a careful, purposeful analysis of the melee gems that have been implemented -- as well as those to come -- and either re-applying whatever baseline design principles the devs had originally intended for the melee skill matrix, or creating a new one (which might even include "screw it, everybody melee weapon can use every melee skill").

To the reader, however, I pose this question: should you discover, in a patch to come, that the devs have changed the Sweep skill to allow two-handed swords, would you approve or disapprove of such a decision? Why?
GREENS vs. REDS: http://www.pathofexile.com/forum/view-thread/392/page/246#p811501
The Prisoner's Dilemma: http://www.pathofexile.com/forum/view-thread/392/page/262#p813428
Lethal_papercut's discussion with Chris: http://www.pathofexile.com/forum/view-thread/392/page/235#p806542
Последняя редакция: Xaxyx#3372. Время: 13 мая 2013 г., 11:21:35
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Xaxyx написал:

To the reader, however, I pose this question: should you discover, in a patch to come, that the devs have changed the Sweep skill to allow two-handed weapons, would you approve or disapprove of such a decision? Why?


I would disapprove. Restrictions like that helps differentiate the weapons.
You want to make weapon selection a pure calculation instead of a meaningful choice.
Since I have played both alot D3 (where weapon selection is pure calculation) and alot of PoE, I can tell you that, for me, it would make the game alot less interesting.


The weapon restrictions does not have to be consistent and streamlined. IMO that would just seem boring and stale. In the end all that matters is that the skill availabilty for each weapon is balanced.
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Xaxyx написал:
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Torguemada написал:
He's talking about you.

I can see where you might think so. It can often be difficult to turn a critical eye toward those who agree with you. But objectivity is of paramount importance in argumentation. Heck, I dressed down the OP in this very thread quite a ways back.


Objetively, you would have to be very ignorant to argue that bows have an advantage over melee in skill selection when, objectively, every melee weapon have more skills available to them than bows.


You are just crying over not being able ot use something that you think you should, without thinking about why it is the way it is.
If you would have used half the effort you made defending your irrational position to actually try to understand what we are telling you then this thread would not have had to be this long or you could instead have spent your time to make your case for why less meaningful choice in weapon selection is a good thing.
Последняя редакция: Sickness#1007. Время: 13 мая 2013 г., 11:41:09

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