Why are only melee punished by weapon specific skill gems?

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Sickness написал:

Why is the inconsistency so bad in this case? I don't really see the harm it does, but I see all the good it does in differentiating the weapons. I have played the streamlined version, it's what they did in D3, and while D3 is a pretty good game I did not like this aspect of it very much at all.

It depends on which inconsistency we're talking about. If you're talking about the inconsistency wherein, for example, two-handed axes are denied the use of one skill and two-handed swords are denied two, then no, I don't see too much harm. I'm, however, talking about the inconsistency wherein there's a tradeoff of available skills between 2H-axe and 2H-sword, but no such tradeoff exists between 1H-axe and 1H-sword.

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I name them all Steven.

That's the spirit! I knew there was hope for you.

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Since it's beta and there are alot of skills still to be released I think that it's a huge mistake to change the entire system in reaction to the current balance.
The current system can be balanced, it's just a matter of adding and tuning skills.

Perhaps so. Heck, probably so. But I'm not a gambler by nature. Rather, I am a pessimist. So I'd much rather embarrass myself by shrieking about the inhumanity of it all in the hopes of having a dev pat me gently on the head reassuringly -- or, at the very least, have a dev be aware of my concerns and take them into all due consideration.

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To kill diversity and choice just to have it balanced NOW would be silly.
The weapon restrictions still does not have to be consistent and streamlined.

I'd be fine with being told "Yes, we know there are holes in the current weapon skill matrix, we're filling them... eventually".

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(a) Lesser/greater in terms of their stats (ie DPS)

That's not always the primary concern when selecting a weapon. Another consideration could be, at the risk of irony, selecting a weapon because of the additional weapon skills that are available to it, for utility purposes -- Leap Slam, et al.

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(b) Why does that matter when your point is that you want to make every skill available for every melee weapon?

That's not my preferred solution. It's simply last on my list of satisfactory options. I'd prefer a consistent, balanced approach, such as the one illustrated by 2H-axe vs 2H-sword.

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Xaxyx написал:

Streamlined is not the definition of deep.

Nor is restricted. Deepness becomes a factor when the model consistently presents a conflict to the player. Resolving that conflict can and should involve exploring the space defined by the weapon-to-skill schema, some of which is streamlined, some of which is restricted, in a manner that consistently -- not constantly; not perfectly; merely reliably -- guides a character's development path and focus. That model would be cool. And that model *is* reflected in some of the tree. Just not all of it. Not yet, as you might have me maintain.

So you agree that it comes down to balance and that it's not really the system that is broken, and that adding new skills is better than changing the entire system?

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Sickness написал:

So you agree that it comes down to balance and that it's not really the system that is broken, and that adding new skills is better than changing the entire system?

I agree to the following: if that is in fact the system; and the aberrations I've identified are exceptions rather than the rule; and these exceptions are going to be corrected and/or accommodated for going forward; then yes, the system is fine, and adding new skills will flesh the whole model out.

And I'll further agree that this solution would be superior to simply painting the whole canvas green, i.e., giving every melee skill to every melee weapon. A solution of proportional variation would serve as a more viable model of interesting choices than the salad bar solution.

All I'd need at this point is some form of confirmation and/or acknowledgement from the devs of the conclusions we've drawn. I seem to recall coming upon some vagaries in the Development Diary regarding improvements to melee coming down the pipe; as to what that entails, we may have to just wait and see.

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Xaxyx написал:

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Sickness написал:

So you agree that it comes down to balance and that it's not really the system that is broken, and that adding new skills is better than changing the entire system?

I agree to the following: if that is in fact the system; and the aberrations I've identified are exceptions rather than the rule; and these exceptions are going to be corrected and/or accommodated for going forward; then yes, the system is fine, and adding new skills will flesh the whole model out.

And I'll further agree that this solution would be superior to simply painting the whole canvas green, i.e., giving every melee skill to every melee weapon. A solution of proportional variation would serve as a more viable model of interesting choices than the salad bar solution.

All I'd need at this point is some form of confirmation and/or acknowledgement from the devs of the conclusions we've drawn. I seem to recall coming upon some vagaries in the Development Diary regarding improvements to melee coming down the pipe; as to what that entails, we may have to just wait and see.

you do realize that you still probably wont be able to ground slam with a sword right? Just saying...it probably isnt going to happen. (honest question, because it has been pointed repeatedly across this thread that melee skills are continuing to be added, due to the fact that this game is in beta.)

Also you do realize that this is a compromise from your 'i have sword...groundslam no work... i r punished' stance right (and an admittance that you see the balance reasons why weapon specific skills exist at all right?).

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LostForm написал:

you do realize that you still probably wont be able to ground slam with a sword right? Just saying...it probably isnt going to happen. (honest question, because it has been pointed repeatedly across this thread that melee skills are continuing to be added, due to the fact that this game is in beta.)

Yeah, probably not. I'll get over it. Especially if we're right, and it's for a noble and just cause.

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Also you do realize that this is a compromise from your 'i have sword...groundslam no work... i r punished' stance right (and an admittance that you see the balance reasons why weapon specific skills exist at all right?).

I see the *potential* for such a system; and I can identify the seeming *groundwork* already in place for such a system; and I acknowledge that Ground Slam and Sweep's architectures serve as suitable examples of such groundwork. Under these auspices, I recognize that skill-to-weapon variations such as these are necessary in order to fully realize that system.

I also agree that such a system, a system of proportional variation, would be a superior -- that is to say, more interesting -- system as compared to everybody-can-do-everything.

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Xaxyx написал:

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LostForm написал:

you do realize that you still probably wont be able to ground slam with a sword right? Just saying...it probably isnt going to happen. (honest question, because it has been pointed repeatedly across this thread that melee skills are continuing to be added, due to the fact that this game is in beta.)

Yeah, probably not. I'll get over it. Especially if we're right, and it's for a noble and just cause.

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Also you do realize that this is a compromise from your 'i have sword...groundslam no work... i r punished' stance right (and an admittance that you see the balance reasons why weapon specific skills exist at all right?).

I see the *potential* for such a system; and I can identify the seeming *groundwork* already in place for such a system; and I acknowledge that Ground Slam and Sweep's architectures serve as suitable examples of such groundwork. Under these auspices, I recognize that skill-to-weapon variations such as these are necessary in order to fully realize that system.

I also agree that such a system, a system of proportional variation, would be a superior -- that is to say, more interesting -- system as compared to everybody-can-do-everything.

yay for choices, and them actually creating meaningful diversity and customization!!

I am glad you changed your mind.

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LostForm написал:

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Xaxyx написал:

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Sickness написал:

So you agree that it comes down to balance and that it's not really the system that is broken, and that adding new skills is better than changing the entire system?

I agree to the following: if that is in fact the system; and the aberrations I've identified are exceptions rather than the rule; and these exceptions are going to be corrected and/or accommodated for going forward; then yes, the system is fine, and adding new skills will flesh the whole model out.

And I'll further agree that this solution would be superior to simply painting the whole canvas green, i.e., giving every melee skill to every melee weapon. A solution of proportional variation would serve as a more viable model of interesting choices than the salad bar solution.

All I'd need at this point is some form of confirmation and/or acknowledgement from the devs of the conclusions we've drawn. I seem to recall coming upon some vagaries in the Development Diary regarding improvements to melee coming down the pipe; as to what that entails, we may have to just wait and see.

you do realize that you still probably wont be able to ground slam with a sword right? Just saying...it probably isn't going to happen. (honest question, because it has been pointed repeatedly across this thread that melee skills are continuing to be added, due to the fact that this game is in beta.)

Also you do realize that this is a compromise from your 'i have sword...groundslam no work... i r punished' stance right (and an admittance that you see the balance reasons why weapon specific skills exist at all right?).

This game was never meant to be realistic. A lot of people raised their concern over the fact that in this game frozen enemies can still burn, undead enemies can get damage by poison (although it's Chaos damage in this game), you can be frozen in mid air while leap slamming etc., etc., and the response they got from the fans of the game was that "Path of Exile was never meant to be realistic coz it's ARPG about creating builds, grinding and farming". I mean if this game already has the ridiculous aforementioned stuff, why would a sword ground slamming be unacceptable?

Come on, are you serious? This game is fantasy but it has to make a little sense.

You want to use ground slam with a bow or what? Doesn't make any sense.

And about frozen enemies that can burn: MAN, don't approach it that scientifically, it involves magic and it does make sense. What you are suggesting are way to complex mechanics:

Monsters can freeze except when burning or are in mid-air or perhaps when standing in water, do you really think that will improve the gameplay??? Do you really think that using ground slam with a bow will improve gameplay?

Children, I am glad PoE follows it's own concept and does not listen to stupid people like you.

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Veracocha написал:

This game was never meant to be realistic. A lot of people raised their concern over the fact that in this game frozen enemies can still burn, undead enemies can get damage by poison (although it's Chaos damage in this game), you can be frozen in mid air while leap slamming etc., etc., and the response they got from the fans of the game was that "Path of Exile was never meant to be realistic coz it's ARPG about creating builds, grinding and farming". I mean if this game already has the ridiculous aforementioned stuff, why would a sword ground slamming be unacceptable?

there is literally 22 pages talking about the question you raised...you should read it :D


but this sums it up pretty well...

"yay for choices, and them actually creating meaningful diversity and customization!!"