Jonathan Was Wrong, Challenge is NOT Required to Have Fun

i must say tho', doing the campaign everytime give me eczema in poe 1. i didn't pIay much Ieague because of it. But the endgame is certainIy a fresh air when rou are in it.

it might sounds fooIish but i Ioved the "adventure" IeveIing of d3.

and i'm scared that with poe 2 story Ienght..

I genuinely wonder, for those who insist that the only content worth doing is in the endgame, is there any open-mindedness regarding the potential to make an ARPG that is fun to play in the campaign?

I think I understand, but I want to keep an open-mind myself and see where I may be wrong, here is my understanding:

playing softcore trade (as most players do), there is a feeling that all time spent in the campaign is essentially a waste of time, because the loot there is meaningless. also, since there's no penalty for death, it's simply an obstacle and a "slog" (to quote the meta here).

on the other hand, for a HCSSF, every area and most drops have some meaning, you're desperate for any increase in power at every stage of the story, so it's much more meaningful to engage with the campaign and even grind during it.

so for SC Trade is there really just no way to make that "slog" enjoyable, since the game itself depends on having access to the best loot, most juiced areas, and clearing said areas as fast as possible?

obviously the vision here is to create a game that involves being engaged with the entire game, the entire way through it. so I am not finding an avenue where players of PoE will feel any purpose in this type of ARPG. am I on the mark at all?

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rhorains#6760 написал:

I genuinely wonder, for those who insist that the only content worth doing is in the endgame, is there any open-mindedness regarding the potential to make an ARPG that is fun to play in the campaign?

I think I understand, but I want to keep an open-mind myself and see where I may be wrong, here is my understanding:

playing softcore trade (as most players do), there is a feeling that all time spent in the campaign is essentially a waste of time, because the loot there is meaningless. also, since there's no penalty for death, it's simply an obstacle and a "slog" (to quote the meta here).

on the other hand, for a HCSSF, every area and most drops have some meaning, you're desperate for any increase in power at every stage of the story, so it's much more meaningful to engage with the campaign and even grind during it.

so for SC Trade is there really just no way to make that "slog" enjoyable, since the game itself depends on having access to the best loot, most juiced areas, and clearing said areas as fast as possible?

obviously the vision here is to create a game that involves being engaged with the entire game, the entire way through it. so I am not finding an avenue where players of PoE will feel any purpose in this type of ARPG. am I on the mark at all?

The main problem is not that ppl have to do the campaign, the problem is that there is nothing to do.

Tell me:
How many Rituals are in the campaign?
How many Expeditions?
How many Breaches?
How many Rogue Exiles?
How many Essences?
How many Delirium Mirrors?
How many useful items as quest rewards?

How long does it take you to finish the campaign?
How often have you done it? Two times? Three times? Five? Ten?
How often do you think you are willing to do the campaign?
How smooth is the item and build progression?

I like Sekhema for challange. Even trials of chaos were ok. I like hard bosses in campaign.

Bad loot is not challenge. Useless skills are not challenge. Empty maps, empty strongboxes, empty whisps are not challenge.

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JakkerONAIR#4902 написал:

The main problem is not that ppl have to do the campaign, the problem is that there is nothing to do.

Tell me:
How many Rituals are in the campaign?
How many Expeditions?
How many Breaches?
How many Rogue Exiles?
How many Essences?
How many Delirium Mirrors?
How many useful items as quest rewards?

How long does it take you to finish the campaign?
How often have you done it? Two times? Three times? Five? Ten?
How often do you think you are willing to do the campaign?
How smooth is the item and build progression?

I love the response. very concise report on what you feel is lacking content-wise in the non-endgame.

I have to admit that I have such little experience with most of that stuff. I come from D2 and played no other ARPG titles, so I'm pretty accustomed to "killing mobs" being the only thing to do. I won't argue whether that's an OK game model or not, but D2 did survive a long time on only that as content...

so, maybe where I'm wrong here, is the fact that I've yet to experience most of the things you've mentioned. I only did 5 maps in 0.1, it honestly overwhelmed me, I didn't understand any of it, wasn't sure of the goal or the mechanics, how to use the atlas, what a "tier" even is.. so I stepped away for a month until this patch came out. since then, I chose to play HC SSF and I've spent probably now 200 hours (on 2nd thought maybe 100 hours lol sorry that doesn't add up but it feels like 200 xd) just getting to act 5, a lot of time re-running campaign maps and grinding. somehow for me this is still fun, even though most of that stuff doesn't exist (I've met a few rouges in cruel and that was a nice surprise). but - as I said, until I've experienced all that stuff I probably don't have much room to comment on the feelings held by players who are familiar.

Useful quest rewards? obviously passives and +resist, +ailment threshold are nice rewards. but that's about 10%. everything else is very bad, skill gems and now some runes and artificer orbs (stuff you will find so fast if you even grind a little). it BLOWS. MY. MIND. that there is not a single currency "reward" in the campaign, the thing you want the most in the game, zero lol!!!

How long to finish campaign? maybe 25 hours on softcore, but I'm over 100 hours in HCSSF.

How often? second time through.

How often will I be willing to do it? who knows. like I said, I still play D2 (the mods, anyway) to this day, and it never once has entered my mind that D2 even has a campaign, because that's like, the game.. and there is a lot more to do, with other players, at least on a ladder reset (restarting and playing through the D2 "campaign" with other players is still the greatest gaming experience I know to this day, though vanilla D2 is dead RIP).

How smooth is the item and build progression? It's pretty trash and I'm trying to be very vocal about my suggestion to help make it better for players like me (link)

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rhorains#6760 написал:

I love the response. very concise report on what you feel is lacking content-wise in the non-endgame.

I have to admit that I have such little experience with most of that stuff. I come from D2 and played no other ARPG titles, so I'm pretty accustomed to "killing mobs" being the only thing to do. I won't argue whether that's an OK game model or not, but D2 did survive a long time on only that as content...

Hm, how do I translate this for a D2 player?
Ah, imagine you wouldn't have vendors and runes until "Hell".

Not having the things I listed presented throughout the campaign, to introduce ppl step by step to the mechanic and to offer better progression, is the problem with PoE2.
These things aren't in the Acts (or only 1-2 times), but then when you start mapping, it pops up.

And keep in mind, GGG wanted to make the campaign more accessible, but then gated essential mechanics to the endgame, instead of teaching you the stuff while being in the "learning phase".

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Useful quest rewards? obviously passives and +resist, +ailment threshold are nice rewards. but that's about 10%. everything else is very bad, skill gems and now some runes and artificer orbs (stuff you will find so fast if you even grind a little). it BLOWS. MY. MIND. that there is not a single currency "reward" in the campaign, the thing you want the most in the game, zero lol!!!

Should have highlighted it, I wrote "items" as quest rewards.
Now you get... let me think... a rare belt to select in Act 3.
That's it!? Can't remember anything else.

In PoE1, you get multiple things to select as quest rewards.
Helmets, Body Armour, Belts, Rings to fix resistances and so on.
These rewards are meant for ppl who got "unlucky" with their drops/crafting, to smooth the progression. That's not a thing in PoE2.

"

How long to finish campaign? maybe 25 hours on softcore, but I'm over 100 hours in HCSSF.

How often? second time through.

Then I understand that it's fun for you.
The first few "runs" are enjoyable. But the more you have to repeat it, the more you encounter massive flaws. Especially because PoE2 is designed to be a "top-heavy" game with the main focus on "mapping".

"

How often will I be willing to do it? who knows. like I said, I still play D2 (the mods, anyway) to this day, and it never once has entered my mind that D2 even has a campaign, because that's like, the game.. and there is a lot more to do, with other players, at least on a ladder reset (restarting and playing through the D2 "campaign" with other players is still the greatest gaming experience I know to this day, though vanilla D2 is dead RIP).

And that's the difference. PoE is not the campaign. Not how it is in D2. That doesn't mean it's bad or something if you primarily play the campaign, but that's not how the game is meant to be designed from GGG's side and the vast majority of the player base.

AND... just compare the feeling you have when you progress D2 with PoE2.
It's night and day. You actually can find an awesome "unique" item in D2 that carries you into the endgame, you can find runes and target "craft" items you want. Your character becomes increasingly stronger, and you feel it.
Vendors and "gamba"? Incredibly balanced. Not so strong that you just get the best items without any effort in Act 1, but not so weak that you feel like you just waste resources.
That you don't mind running the D2 Acts over and over just shows - it's good.

The main problem that they don't add challenge. They add chore, tedioum and time wasting.

And it's in PoE2 core map design. Making maps corridors and at least 3 mob packs with degen pools and after death explosions isn't challenge. It's annoying time obstacle.

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AcnologiaDragneel#1059 написал:

"Challenge is NOT Required to Have Fun". Agreed 100%

Jonathan was saying in an interview that he needs to be able to enjoy the game. That tells me that he didn't enjoy playing POE 1 and is being a bit selfish in saying, I want! When its us that is funding this game, or players are playing a character the wrong way, what happened to creativity, to build your class however you like.

Curious when they realise that the only way players want to play games in general is "not as devs intended".

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JakkerONAIR#4902 написал:

Hm, how do I translate this for a D2 player?
Ah, imagine you wouldn't have vendors and runes until "Hell".

thanks! I won't have time right now to respond to your entire post but I did read it all and resonated quite a bit.

two things I'll say:

1) I am under the impression that the current PoE2 endgame is simply a temporary copyover from PoE1 - that it might look much different at release. any truth here or just rumor?

2) runewords are probably the thing that really separates these two campaigns more than anything. simply because, runewords are the most deterministic crafting thing that there is - you know exactly which mods you will get, only the rolls vary. I think that was D2's answer to "this RNG is insane". not sure what PoE2's answer will be.

thanks again! always enjoy reading your input in this forum so you know.

I disagree but TEDIUM isn't challenge.