Time does NOT equal difficulty

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ScrotieMcB написал:

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AintCare написал:

the most difficult exams had no time limit...

Give them a time limit, and then they're more difficult.

no they wont be more difficult, difficulty comes from the questions you asking... the time constrain will just make it more challenging..

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Perspikacity написал:

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hoya написал:

i think you spelled perspicacity wrong there

Yes, yes I did. It's a subtle joke. I misspelled a word that means intelligent or smart. It's suppose to be Ironic. I guess it's a little to subtle since no one seems to get it but me.

No no, I think you actually mispelled it, and this is your way to save face.

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PolarisOrbit написал:

Time investment and difficulty are two different things, that's certainly true. However, it's also a characteristic of RPGs (and therefore ARPGs by extension) that time investment can replace skill through various forms of character growth- items, abilities, and levels. Player skill and character power are both related and somewhat interchangeable, but character power is almost wholly a function of time investment.

but does it have to be? My whole point here is not to try and get any member of the community to abandon this antiquated mentality of time = challenge. I know nearly half will say tldr and nearly all of the other half tell me I'm wrong with that tiny sliver that remains telling me good point but no one's listening. I am hoping that this idea will inspire some developer to look at gaming through a different lens and maybe create some content that is wholly different than what we have come to expect from MMO's in general. PoE is a great foundation on which some really cool stuff could be built. This game already has tones of opportunity for innovation and creativity I want to see that way of thinking not only continue but expanded upon. Complacency is the enemy.

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PolarisOrbit написал:

There is a knowledge component to character building, but since this is a multiplayer online game anybody can (and probably should if they intend to play competitively) look up a cookie cutter build to substitute that element of skill.

That's exactly what I want to avoid. I don't like the idea of cookie cutter builds. I realize the inevitability of it but the truth is, it takes allot of the polish off the game. Scion is not out for another week but I bet are there are already people thinking of new builds and skill gem spreads. I give it 24 hours after launch tops before we start seeing dozens of "My level 83 Scion Death Flayer of Uberpwnag (TM) build" threads on the forums. I prefer a game where I actually have to be good at the game, not good at following instructions.

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PolarisOrbit написал:

One way to think of it is that the "Action" part of the game requires and develops skill, the "RPG" part diminishes the impact of that skill and replaces it with time-based growth instead. If the developers wanted the game to be more skill-based, they would focus on developing the tactics of combat and the evolution of strategic play- "action" things. By investing most of their efforts in growing the item diversity, passive builds, and experience grinders they instead demonstrate a different objective.

I have been seen criticizing GGG's skill design in other topics because there's no way to address the tactics of combat- the skill part of the game- without giving the player appropriate tools. I'm not sure if I ever explained that before. But that's why I critique that part of the game so heavily. Hopefully 1.0 will finally bring some real progress on this front because I'm getting tired of being disappointed with every new skill gem added to the game.

I think we may be on the same page here. I would like combat to be a bit more engaging. I think perhaps the new traps they are introducing will allow for some of that. We'll see.

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skinnay написал:

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Perspikacity написал:

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hoya написал:

i think you spelled perspicacity wrong there

Yes, yes I did. It's a subtle joke. I misspelled a word that means intelligent or smart. It's suppose to be Ironic. I guess it's a little to subtle since no one seems to get it but me.

I get it. You spelled difficulty wrong in the thread title because it's a difficult word to spell. ha!

No that was a typo.

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narg62 написал:

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Perspikacity написал:

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hoya написал:

i think you spelled perspicacity wrong there

Yes, yes I did. It's a subtle joke. I misspelled a word that means intelligent or smart. It's suppose to be Ironic. I guess it's a little to subtle since no one seems to get it but me.

No no, I think you actually mispelled it, and this is your way to save face.

Whatever you say boss. By the way, you misspelled the word "misspelled".

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AintCare написал:

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ScrotieMcB написал:

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AintCare написал:

the most difficult exams had no time limit...

Give them a time limit, and then they're more difficult.

no they wont be more difficult, difficulty comes from the questions you asking... the time constrain will just make it more challenging..

Wait, so difficulty and challenge are different things to you? Are we really arguing over semantics here?

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ScrotieMcB написал:

Wait, so difficulty and challenge are different things to you? Are we really arguing over semantics here?

not to me..

difficult -needing much effort or skill to accomplish, deal with, or understand

challenge -a call to someone to participate in a competitive situation or fight to decide who is superior in terms of ability or strength.

as someone already mentioned, challenge comes from competition between the individuals, so 'racing' makes a challenge... time constrain just makes things more challenging as in you wont be able to complete everything in time (and often is used to evaluate the performance)... the difficulty has nothing to do with time constrain

ARPG's aren't difficult, they never have been.

It is all about gear checks and investing heavy amounts of time. Mechanics are very limited in most ARPG's. The amount of grinding in time intensive games is why there is always a huge botting/RMT problem when it comes to ARPG's.

The more grindy you make a game, the more botting and RMT will take place. These are two major elements that have existed in every grindy game I've played.

FFXI = Second most grindy game I have ever played. Botting and RMT were epidemics.
Diablo 2 = So, so grindy, Botting and RMT epidemics.
Lineage 1 = The most grindy game I ever played by far = Botting and RMT were epidemics.
PoE way more grindy than D2, looks like botting and RMT is a problem.


Time doesn't mean difficulty, time means more are going to circumvent gameplay through nefarious avenues.

Bumping a quality thread.

This was a good read. The right kind of difficulty can intrinsically improve a game by making it challenging and engaging. That is in juxtaposition to grinding which is neither challenging nor engaging. Another facet of difficulty to consider is its impact on strategic diversity. Does the existing difficulty funnel players into a first order optimal strategy? Could difficulty, instead, encourage strategic parity? Strategy in this case refers to character gear, skills and passives. I think the answer is 'yes' on both counts. Existing difficulty must be adjusted to make the game more engaging sooner, yes. Existing difficulty must also be adjusted such that second order suboptimal strategies are not grind frustration but rather engaging experimentation. Finally, difficulty can take the form of targeted build weaknesses and strengths. For example, range-countering mobs and map properties would act as difficulty that both engages players and increases build parity.