Gating XP and progress behind RNG

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demivion написал:

I really wish PoE had adopted a similar system, maybe we wouldn't have people begging for high map drop rates?

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MMO's like WoW have burned into people's mind that they are supposed to hit the level cap easily then the "real game" starts. in POE the "real game" is lvl 1 to somwhere around lvl 85; beyond that is just "icing on the cake".

People who grew up on traditional MMO's (WoW) won't understand this concept.

Since you've posted in this thread, in which I do not see any begging for high map drop rates, I will take the freedom to mark that statement completely irrelevant macho stuff.

Again, nowhere here is written that a non-RNG gated system would mean that hitting level cap would be easier, please, focus on your reading and don't embarrass yourself with that macho attitude.
And by all means, tell us where you got the idea that "real game" starts at the level cap in this thread. I've never seen that on PoE forum, in any thread, for a reason.

See, that definition of a "real game" ending around lvl 85 is just your opinion. Believe it or not, when people make a build that usually gets finished around that level, they would like to kill some monsters with it, and preferably, if the build is what they were looking for, they would like to enjoy a little longer doing challenging stuff with their build.

It's a matter of a taste, don't present yours as a fact.

If those "MMO players" don't understand that, what kind of a player are you? Just curious.

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tinko92 написал:

Since you've posted in this thread, in which I do not see any begging for high map drop rates, I will take the freedom to mark that statement completely irrelevant macho stuff.

Again, nowhere here is written that a non-RNG gated system would mean that hitting level cap would be easier, please, focus on your reading and don't embarrass yourself with that macho attitude.
And by all means, tell us where you got the idea that "real game" starts at the level cap in this thread. I've never seen that on PoE forum, in any thread, for a reason.

See, that definition of a "real game" ending around lvl 85 is just your opinion. Believe it or not, when people make a build that usually gets finished around that level, they would like to kill some monsters with it, and preferably, if the build is what they were looking for, they would like to enjoy a little longer doing challenging stuff with their build.

It's a matter of a taste, don't present yours as a fact.

If those "MMO players" don't understand that, what kind of a player are you? Just curious.

It doesn't have to be explicitly stated to be obvious.

You don't want content gated behind RNG, correct?

So what do people want it gated on? Difficulty right? (or no gating)

So here's what I hear from all this: "I can do harder maps therefore I am entitled to do harder maps whenever I want"

Harder maps = higher level maps (obviously, you've already stated that you don't want to roll harder mods on lower level maps)

Doing higher level maps whenever you want means that people will level faster, reach lvl 100 faster, beat the game faster, quit the game faster.

You said "I don't want to reach the level cap faster, you can extend it for all I care" (not in those exact words). But to do this you would have to fundamentally change the way the game works. Thats not going to happen anytime soon, and it's completely illogical. Why would GGG let players run lvl 78 maps whenever they wanted to and then extend the XP required to hit level cap? It would be much easier for GGG to just lower the max map level and keep the XP required the same. IT has the same effect as what you are suggesting but for less work.

However GGG decided to allow maps to go to lvl 78, this is only to give very motivated players additional challenges. You aren't meant to do high level maps whenever you want in the current state of the game or else GGG would have increased map dops rates already.

In fact right now GGG belives players getting to lvl 78 maps TOO MUCH, which is why they are nerfing cartographers strongboxes again soon.

Why do you want to redesign the game when the problem is created 100% in the players minds? If GGG removed the level cap completely we wouldn't even be having this conversation right now because players would not feel the pressure to "beat the game".

both OP's - and most of the guys' who commented on his post - view of RNG is so simplistic and boolean, it hurts.

but I'll spare you the elaborate wall-of-text descriptions of what RNG is and what you can do with the results it gives you (got several posts of that already), and instead take a simplistic approach as well:

so think of RNG as medicine:
it's probably good if you're ill and taking the right dose will help you, but taking an overdose would likely kill you.

what GGG are doing in Path Of Exile, is taking an overdose.

in good aRPGs, the RNG is given well-defined roles and constraints.
Path Of Exile is good, but it's not an aRPG.

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demivion написал:

It doesn't have to be explicitly stated to be obvious.

You don't want content gated behind RNG, correct?

So what do people want it gated on? Difficulty right? (or no gating)

So here's what I hear from all this: "I can do harder maps therefore I am entitled to do harder maps whenever I want"

Harder maps = higher level maps (obviously, you've already stated that you don't want to roll harder mods on lower level maps)

Doing higher level maps whenever you want means that people will level faster, reach lvl 100 faster, beat the game faster, quit the game faster.

You said "I don't want to reach the level cap faster, you can extend it for all I care" (not in those exact words). But to do this you would have to fundamentally change the way the game works. Thats not going to happen anytime soon, and it's completely illogical. Why would GGG let players run lvl 78 maps whenever they wanted to and then extend the XP required to hit level cap? It would be much easier for GGG to just lower the max map level and keep the XP required the same. IT has the same effect as what you are suggesting but for less work.

However GGG decided to allow maps to go to lvl 78, this is only to give very motivated players additional challenges. You aren't meant to do high level maps whenever you want in the current state of the game or else GGG would have increased map dops rates already.

In fact right now GGG belives players getting to lvl 78 maps TOO MUCH, which is why they are nerfing cartographers strongboxes again soon.

Why do you want to redesign the game when the problem is created 100% in the players minds? If GGG removed the level cap completely we wouldn't even be having this conversation right now because players would not feel the pressure to "beat the game".

Firstly, I'd like to apologize, you were right about "real game" ending around 85th level, that is the current situation. But, why is that? RNG gated content.

Content has to be gated by something, and I do argue that gating it behind difficulty would be the best here, in this genre (like it is in almost all other games, and none has it gated behind RNG like PoE, for a reason).
But, since obviously a portion of players like to gamble for progress, it would be the best way to have the both ways.
Difficulty gated content would provide slower progression, but wouldn't force the player to grind easier content.
It can be done, and it would be damn worth it.

Is that what you hear? I thought I (and many others) were saying this:
If I can handle the harder content, why am I constantly pushed back?

They are harder, and it's also about leveling progression, which I've also said many, many times. Plus, it's more expensive.
I didn't say I don't want to, even though I really don't want to, for the reasons stated above.

I agree that it won't happen anytime soon, in fact, I believe it will never happen, because that would shatter one pillar of the economy, and that's not acceptable in PoE.
But why is that illogical, I'd like to know.
No, it's not the same, precisely because of thing that I've already wrote, hints: leveling progression, harder content, not being pushed back.
Again, what I'm proposing would require more work, not less, you might want to skim back at my previous posts here.

I do agree that we're not meant to run 78 maps, and that's exactly the problem, we've been denied playing more challenging content, because of something we can't influence enough to make it work for us.
As you could see, there will always be those mountain wizards that spill the knowledge about map management, but that's just hilarious.

I'm aware of the GGG's stance on the situation in Ambush, and that's in top 3 worst information/reaction from GGG, in my book.
They are all in the fucking economy...

Of course it's in the players minds, it's the basic thing of these kind of games, build a strong character to fight harder content and progress faster, yet that's denied in PoE because of the RNG.
I disagree, again, it's about the leveling progression and fighting challenging content, removing level cap would mean absolutely nothing.

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phrazz написал:

Gear is one thing. Gear IS, and SHOULD be, gated behind RNG. If not, it's not an aRPG.

This is just false.

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This is just false.

Maybe he meant All Random Power-creep Generator, who knows?

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BoltThrower87 написал:

This is just false.

No, it's not. Every aRPG (hack and slash) game in hisrory, is RNG based. Some more than others. But if the loot and item drops aren't random, we slowly move into an other genre.

But I still don't understand this: Gated XP gain is something completely new, we have not seen this before. Or I haven't. Still people see it as the "one true thing to do", and spit on all other arguments. It's almost funny.

I just feel it's kind of sad, having to roll 120+ IIQ on maps to be able to find new maps. This directly lessen the possible builds you can make.

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phrazz написал:

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BoltThrower87 написал:

This is just false.

No, it's not. Every aRPG (hack and slash) game in hisrory, is RNG based. Some more than others. But if the loot and item drops aren't random, we slowly move into an other genre.

But I still don't understand this: Gated XP gain is something completely new, we have not seen this before. Or I haven't. Still people see it as the "one true thing to do", and spit on all other arguments. It's almost funny.

I just feel it's kind of sad, having to roll 120+ IIQ on maps to be able to find new maps. This directly lessen the possible builds you can make.

It does sound good on paper, though.

"The harder you make the map you're running, the more you will get to do that content".
Basically rewarding people for running hard content, doesn't sound too bad now does it?

The problem arises from the fact that RNG is always RNG, and even if someone rolled the hardest mods on a map with all the other good stuff, it's not guaranteed for him to stay at that content.

if you ask me... map level should be tied to the mods.

For example, all maps are level 66, but the mods such as "players have -max res" upgrades map level by 2, whereas "monsters attacks chain 2 times" increases it by 1.
This way, the only way to run high lvl maps is to have them have really hard mods.

What does this do?
Running white maps only gets you to 66 content.
Running blue maps gets you up to 70 content (if +2 is max increase in map level on at least 1 pre- and suffix)
Running rare maps gets you up to 78 content.

This would make maps hard and ensure that people can actually run the content if they want to.

No need for RNG on both the map drops and the map mods, that's just silly.

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Reinhart написал:

MMO-mentality: hardcap = endgame = finished character. WoW brainwashing. Hell Blizzard even applied it to their own Diablo 3. Hence all the confusion and frustration.

So, you didn't play video games before 2004? Or older ones that were made before that year?

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phrazz написал:

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BoltThrower87 написал:

This is just false.

No, it's not. Every aRPG (hack and slash) game in hisrory, is RNG based. Some more than others. But if the loot and item drops aren't random, we slowly move into an other genre.

But I still don't understand this: Gated XP gain is something completely new, we have not seen this before. Or I haven't. Still people see it as the "one true thing to do", and spit on all other arguments. It's almost funny.

I just feel it's kind of sad, having to roll 120+ IIQ on maps to be able to find new maps. This directly lessen the possible builds you can make.

Dark Souls 2 is largely not RNG based. And "hack and slash" is not equivalent to Action RPG.