Pohx: POE is now like D3, leveling is too easy, map system the same, most uniques sucks....

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grepman написал:

you don't know what selling out means ?

from wiki:

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I don't think it's applicable in this case. They need more money to support bigger team to make the game better. It's not so much for "personal gain", at least not in the way wiki article implies (in a way, everything one does is for personal gain, it's not always "immoral"). This part "..compromising of a person's integrity, morality, authenticity, or principles.." is especially suspect. You have different (from GGG's) idea on what a hardcore ARPG truly is. Doesn't make them morally corrupt.

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I develop enterprise software for a living. One probably shouldn't make baseless assumptions, yeah ?

I did apologize in advance if mu hunch was wrong, I really meant it. It's just seemed weird to me that you seemingly didn't get that a sixty person team has a much higher burn rate than a 3 person team. Thus their product needs to bring in more money to be sustainable.

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I am very thankful for content updates, and GGG is one of the best small team companies Ive seen. I've never said otherwise.

You did call 'em "sellouts" directly and "liars" in a roundabout way, though.

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I dont care what their goal was. They made a game, which catered to one audience. They since have done a 180, going against their initial principles (at least ones that they voiced initially). This is definiton of selling out, or at least a bait and switch. Thankfully, like Ive said, it wasnt right at the get go.

sorry, I have zero tolerance policy for dumbing down/making more 'accessible' games. I have zero tolerance for mainstream or streamlining. sorry. I have nothing against mainstream games that start up as casual games. but there are very few niche games that dont cater to lowest common denominator on the market already, and I treat them like my children (if I had any) - if you make them handicapped after they were quite normal, you will earn my wrath.

From my perspective there wasn't a 180 turn around. Game was appealing back then, it still is appealing now. Even more so, I might add.

The children part is kinda funny actually. Since PoE is not even a distant nephew to you. But it, for all intents and purposes, actually, is a child to GGG. So maybe you can try and empathize a bit more with them, not be so harsh and rash in your judgement. Considering, they care (and put in time and effort caring, most importantly) about PoE way more than you ever will.

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you see that 'GAME' button on the website ? click it and read the first paragraph

"Path of Exile is an online Action RPG set in the dark fantasy world of Wraeclast. It is designed around a strong online item economy, deep character customisation, competitive PvP and ladder races. "

quick, how many single player games are online, designed around online item economy and competitive pvp and ladder races ?
like Ive said, poe was never marketed as a single player game. it is starkly different from any other single player arpg you can play offline and mod and have different builds playable as branches. poe is a server-side game.

Still a far cry from any sort of MMO-ishness, but whatever, find a couple of examples of successful multiplayer F2P games, that have major content updates twice a year and cater to super hardcore audience. Don't bother with PVP titles though, other players are "content" in those.

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arpgs arent 'hard' in general. the problem is average player power being much higher than before, which makes most of content laughable.

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So yeah, the major difference between 2013 and 2016 is that you have an extra 3 years of playtime under your belt.

how you arrived to this conclusion, makes no sense. no, the major difference is that player power is more than 10 times it used to be. you've admitted as much and now you're going into your own direction again.

when I first played this game, I made it into cruel overleveled. I picked up every item I could find, clearing every single area and even farming a few areas in the process, and ended up with like 1 rare item, the rest blues or whites.

I challenge you to play the game like Ive played TODAY, and count how many rare items you find this way. I assume it will be around 3 or 4 STASH TABS of rare items and quite a few uniques.

Im tired of using numerous examples of how limited the player was, and you responding in lazy generalizations

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You can take away power creep. For experienced players it'll only make the game more grindy.

the whole arpg is a game about GRIND. like weve established, ARPGS dont have mechanical or strategic difficulty. theyre purely a function of time

I love fucking grinding. this is why Im playing a game about grinding made by grinding gear games, yeah ? a hardcore arpg is the one that is punishing, challenging, complex and grindy, at least by my standards.

But the only thing that was different is that instead of timing Gorge runs, people timed Docks runs. You still grinded in the same way, only the place was different.

Remove extra power and people won't be running rare yellows, being more careful and praising the extra challenge, they would most likely run blue whites and complain that monster damage/life is overtuned, like it was after Act 4 got released.

As long as you know how to build a good build, there won't ever be a non-mechanical "challenge" in this game for you. There just will be more and less risky areas to grind. It's just that common grinding point was at Docks/Piety three years ago, and now it's in mid maps.

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GOOD
you dont get this do you ?
I consider a GOOD THING. no, scratch that, a GREAT THING. a-fucking-mazing thing. the last thing I want is casuals coming into a niche game and attempting to bring it down to their level and level of the games they usually play. I will FIGHT DEARLY against this.

But that would mean less new players, less money for GGG, less developers, less new content, less improvements, less populated servers, less stable servers, less servers in general in the long run and so on until the game stops updating completely.

F2P games live off of steady influx of newcomers (cause trying game out costs zero) and "whales" (big spenders, not every whale is hardcore player, though). Your attitude essentially guts the income needed to sustain the ongoing development.

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fine, Ill try it. Kripp was level 69 when he was one shot. I will try to find a toon on standard of that level and using level 69 gear cap I will try it. Ill make a video just for you. Im going to make a video for another guy first, facetanking excavation bosses with vuln and -max as a caster, I promised him because he thinks Im lying there as well.

Didn't say you were lying, said you were exaggerating, wildly. You don't have to do a video if it won't be a fun experiment for you. I'm happy to concede the point if that's the case. It matters little.

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wiki to rescue again !

"Moving the goalposts, similar to "shifting sands" and also known as raising the bar, is an informal fallacy in which evidence presented in response to a specific claim is dismissed and some other (often greater) evidence is demanded. That is, after an attempt has been made to score a goal, the goalposts are moved to exclude the attempt.[3] The problem with changing the rules of the game is that the meaning of the end result is changed, too.[4]"

meaning, the discussion was about changes in the game, not whether or not they are 'fun', which is purely subjective and besides the point at all.
I dont really care whats fun for you- sorry. we look for different fun. my 'fun' and casual fun are diametrically opposite. my fun is when the game bends me over and fucks me mercilessly, my fun is grinding zana 8 solo or 300 boss drops without dumb shortcuts.

casual fun is when they are given a blowjob for moving their mouse here and there.

your point about 'fun' is meaningless. we dont look for the same thing.

But this whole thread is about Phox's "opinion" on the current state of affairs. In fact pretty much every person in this thread (including you) states their opinion on the matter. I still don't get where I moved the goalposts. I didn't demand any extra evidence or anything from you. Just stated that I disagree with your (and by proxy Phox's) assessment of the situation and provided my arguments.

Finally, some bad news, sadly, PoE will never be able to "bend you over" ever again. You have too much knowledge of the game. Lobotomy or drug induced amnesia are the only practical solutions, but the side effects are a real headache.

Whoa Whoa Whoa, pump the brakes. Did someone say PoE is 'too easy'? .... did I hear that right???

I've been playing PoE for slightly over 2 years now (on and off), and I am amazed at how much this game has evolved! Because of the amazing re-playability factor in this game, I still have not even breached past level 92. I'm like right in the middle of a hardcore and casual player, I guess you could label me as 'casually hardcore'.

Basically what i'm trying to say is, PoE is by no means 'too easy'. Once you hit around level 90, you literally have to start playing smarter, or you simply wont be able to progress. There are so many different factors and depth to the endgame and PoE, that this game will NEVER be 'too easy'. The Dev's here (whom I honestly have to say are probably the best Dev's of any game i've ever played!) know what they are doing, and I know they have big things in store for us in the future.

I honestly wouldnt be surprised if come April/May 2017, the next major content adds an expanded level cap or something. The Dev's have NEVER let the whole community down, yes there have been some changes and adjustments that have frustrated some of the hardcore/veteran players (and maybe some casuals too), but for the majority of us (casuals and hardcore casuals), they are doing it right.

Whether you agree or disagree, I think it's safe to say that PoE will never be too easy. Stay safe and happy hunting my friends!

-Joey

Last time i watched pohx stream it bored me to death. 30 minutes of trying to fix his mouse by smashing it around and screaming and then being surprised why it doesn't get fixed. Never again.

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mrjoey523 написал:

I've been playing PoE for slightly over 2 years now (on and off), and I am amazed at how much this game has evolved! Because of the amazing re-playability factor in this game, I still have not even breached past level 92. I'm like right in the middle of a hardcore and casual player, I guess you could label me as 'casually hardcore'.

Dude... I don't mean this offensively... or I'm trying not to mean it offensively... but you sound _incredibly_ casual. 14 challenges? No character above 92? I have a 96 character in standard, a 94 character plus 2 other level 90+ character just this league, 40 challenges, a build worth about 40ex [this league], and _I'm_ more like on the border between casual and hardcore. Before this league I was just plain casual.

The hardcore players either reach level 100 in standard challenge leagues or hit level 90+ in, you know, the actual hardcore challenge leagues. Whereas I just breeze through content in softcore and die sometimes when I'm careless. If I was an actual hardcore player I'd have far more than my current 12ex in liquid currency on top of my build cost.

sorry I think I misread the beginning of your comment and thought you had intentionally meant to sound offensive. I guess you are right though, im only a casual'r and not casually hardcore like I had thought I was. You have to admit though, it does sound kinda cool :-)

Cheers

.

A game is only as good as you feel the company is that made it.

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PaperRat написал:

I don't think it's applicable in this case. They need more money to support bigger team to make the game better. It's not so much for "personal gain", at least not in the way wiki article implies (in a way, everything one does is for personal gain, it's not always "immoral"). This part "..compromising of a person's integrity, morality, authenticity, or principles.." is especially suspect. You have different (from GGG's) idea on what a hardcore ARPG truly is. Doesn't make them morally corrupt.

I bolded the part that is applicable. Catering to a larger and mainstream audience after youve marketed the game as a niche game, is definitely applicable. I don't know how much clearer this has to get.

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It's just seemed weird to me that you seemingly didn't get that a sixty person team has a much higher burn rate than a 3 person team. Thus their product needs to bring in more money to be sustainable.

again, you don't get that I think that compromising integrity and doing an 180 on the original design, is simply unacceptable. it doesn't have to do anything to do with work but with mindset. Id rather be broke than live rich without balls. and best believe at my job I will NEVER sacrifice sound architectural design and implementation over a customer whim or promise of tons of money.

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You did call 'em "sellouts" directly and "liars" in a roundabout way, though.

there is no roundabout way about 'sellouts'- again, definition of a sellout is someone who makes the product catering to a wide audience after it was a niche product. I dont understand why I have to repeat that.
I didnt call them liars though. Their statement about the game held true when the game was released.

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From my perspective there wasn't a 180 turn around. Game was appealing back then, it still is appealing now. Even more so, I might add.

um ok ? from point of any casual player the game is more appealing now, so what ? casual players love shit handed to them, instant gratification and accessibility. I will fight against that in any niche games that are out there, even games I'll never play.

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Considering, they care (and put in time and effort caring, most importantly) about PoE way more than you ever will.

sure. here's the thing tho- their child is poe. I want each and every niche game to be left alone from being casualized and streamlined

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degraga написал:

A game is only as good as you feel the company is that made it.

no

blizzard for example is a corporate powerhouse aiming at polishing soulless and copied ideas without balls to take real risks. a far cry from times when they made original diablo or starcraft or even WoW

for some reason my full reply was cutoff, damn formatting. lets retype this

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PaperRat написал:

Still a far cry from any sort of MMO-ishness, but whatever, find a couple of examples of successful multiplayer F2P games, that have major content updates twice a year and cater to super hardcore audience. Don't bother with PVP titles though, other players are "content" in those.

why ? if the game isnt hardcore, why market it as hardcore ? if you called yourself a 'hardcore aprg youve been waiting for', you better fit the damn description.

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But the only thing that was different is that instead of timing Gorge runs, people timed Docks runs. You still grinded in the same way, only the place was different.

no, not in the same way at all. people whirling blades through canyon or gorge or plateau in mere seconds. you couldnt even do it overleveled like crazy in docks

again, AVERAGE player power rose up through the roof. its also one thing to run semi-fast in content 20 levels below you or one shoot map bosses in your 60s or 70s

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, they would most likely run blue whites and complain that monster damage/life is overtuned, like it was after Act 4 got released.

um, ok. LET THEM complain. you still dont understand Im 100% against casual player appeasement ?
Ive defended the game heavily when it was at its height of being 'hardcore' from casual qq about rng, grind and map gating. I was called a white knight; now people are call me a hater or something because I stick to those beliefs. funny how things change.

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But that would mean less new players, less money for GGG, less developers, less new content, less improvements, less populated servers, less stable servers, less servers in general in the long run and so on until the game stops updating completely.

F2P games live off of steady influx of newcomers (cause trying game out costs zero) and "whales" (big spenders, not every whale is hardcore player, though). Your attitude essentially guts the income needed to sustain the ongoing development.

that's what happens to NICHE games. they shouldnt have made poe a niche game if they expected a steady influx of casual players. here's the thing, again- you make promises and call yourself a niche game, you kinda have to abide by it, yeah ?

again, this is the definition of selling out, which for some reason you wont agree is happening.

Im anti sellout. I will rather play with 5 people and have a niche game, than have a full-casual game with 10 million players. I wont play a full casual game. Im a big believer in FUBU in pc games. For us, by us. I miss those days. now 99.99% of games are dumbed down to accommodate console players and instant gratification.

selfish ? damn right I am. so are you. I came into this game when it catered to hardcore audience and I have the right to complain when the game direction switches up on me. casual players coming into a a hardcore game and complaining about game being too hardcore is idiotic and simply rude. kinda like if youre a straight guy going into a gay bar and saying 'I like the bar, but we need to get rid of all the gays here'.

and, there are far less gay bars than straight bars. ie, far less niche games than accessible games. far less than in the 90s. leave these very, very few games to us. why you trying to kill them ?

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But this whole thread is about Phox's "opinion" on the current state of affairs. In fact pretty much every person in this thread (including you) states their opinion on the matter. I still don't get where I moved the goalposts. I didn't demand any extra evidence or anything from you. Just stated that I disagree with your (and by proxy Phox's) assessment of the situation and provided my arguments.

this was my response to your statement that 'yes, game did change from farming docks while leveling, but its not fun for me' (paraphrasing). I was only arguing that the game changed- the 'fun' part is subjective. the game clearly changed giving players power they never had before. of course casual players will LOVE the direction game is going. they LOVE being handed out shit for free and always 'winning'. they LOVE perandus league and think its the best shit since sliced bread when I think its by far the worst league ever made in poe.

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Finally, some bad news, sadly, PoE will never be able to "bend you over" ever again. You have too much knowledge of the game. Lobotomy or drug induced amnesia are the only practical solutions, but the side effects are a real headache.

nonsense. hardest content and rng still bend me over. core malachai bends me over- its glorious. RNG bends me over, took me like 1k jewelers the other day to get a 6 socket items- it was glorious. still yet to find a unique strongbox in this league- its glorious.

dont try to cover up with knowledge. games can and do bend over players with knowledge. projectpt has amazing knowledge, he got bent over by core malachai. thankfully there is STILL such content in the game for now.

and because of player power, theres less and less such content with each iteration. think of it as throwing qqing casuals a bone. then another bone. players become pavlovian dogs, think theyre entitled to be fed with player power. me, I like a hungry and angry dog. fuck player power. fuck players always wanting to 'win' RNG but never 'lose' RNG rolls, fuck entitlement.