Pohx: POE is now like D3, leveling is too easy, map system the same, most uniques sucks....

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satanttin написал:

POE is like D3? fuck no! wish we had the droprate of D3 tho :')

... if they ever did that then it would truly become D3. Ew. Even during Perandus, when top-tier uniques were several times as common as they should be, it wasn't nearly as bad as D3's droprates.

Here is something no one has mentioned...

The drop rate of legendaries in D3 vs uniques in POE is vastly different. D3 drops much more than POE.

But their usefulness is the same (as Pohx sort of mentioned).

They are good leveling items, but when it comes to build-making gear, 99% of them are terrible and offer little to no creative gameplay.

The difference is, is that in POE, its few and far between that you get these crappy uniques. We aren't talking about few and far between to get useful build-creating uniques...but even just crappy leveling uniques. THEY still dont drop.

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grepman написал:

so if money is very important, why not make the game accessible and casual at the get go ? they would clearly maximize their profits that way, wouldnt they ?

why do companies make niche games at all then ? isnt it easier to cater to widest audience possible, ie lowest common denominator ?

why market a game for hardcore audience, advertise it as such, and then switch later ?
there's a term for this, it's called 'bait and switch'. granted, GGG havent completely done that at the beginning and Ive enjoyed a couple of years or so of the game they promised at the get go. still, its a spit in the face of the smaller, core fanbase who picked this game up to be one thing and now its another thing.

again, you're using every excuse in the book of 'selling out 101'.

The world is not so black and white as you seem to think it is. GGG people obviously care a lot about their game and about their players. It shows, it really does, IMO. They also need to pay salary for 60+ people, rent for an office etc. There's got to be a compromise.

What do you even mean by "selling out". It's not like GGG is your local revolutionary cell or something. I apologize if I'm wrong, but you start to sound like someone, who never had an actual job in their life. Which is not too bad a thing by itself, but one, probably, shouldn't argue points on the matter one have little first-hand experience with. Again, I'm sorry if my assumption is wrong.

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Eve isnt the only niche game out there. There are plenty of niche games out there that refuse to dumb down to double dollars and go with their original vision.
Also, PoE was marketed not as a single player game, but rather a mmorpg-ish game.

Speaking of 60 people, you know, why they have that many? Cause they put up a whole bunch of new content every half a year and a smaller bunch of content every quarter. That anyone can enjoy. For free. They started as a three man studio in a garage. If you think their goal was to stay in a garage, you're delusional. ("mmorpg-ish"? examples please)

Also a couple of examples of single player F2P games that make major content updates every half a year for at least three years straight and are hardcore crowd focused would shoot my argument down pretty quickly.

I don't think PoE stopped being niche at all actually, it likely has comparable active players numbers to Eve for that matter.

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um no. poe still has complexity. a game like that HAS to be challenging at first when you're learning ropes. after a week of play though, especially if you played ARPGs before, leveling is too easy and far more forgiving that it used to be

I played the game a ton in 2013 and never felt like I wasnt being challenged.
here you ago again tho, I've given you an undeniable list of factual tools being GIVEN to the player that greatly enhanced player power, tools that wouldnt make the damn game in the open beta because of how powerful they are, and yet you reply with some intangible, abstract 'you just played too much'...

Yep, people get more power easier now. I disagree that it does anything for harsh learning curve. Game is still pretty unfriendly to casuals (casuals, by definition, mean they have little to no prior ARPG experience).

As I see it, the learning curve is the only real major challenge in PoE. Mechanically it's a pretty simple game by virtue of being an ARPG with a mouse controlled movement. There are mechanical challenges in the game (Atziri, Lab etc.), but I don't often see people complaining those are too easy.

So yeah, the major difference between 2013 and 2016 is that you have an extra 3 years of playtime under your belt.

You can take away power creep. For experienced players it'll only make the game more grindy. For players that love weird builds it'll make the game less fun. For casuals it'll make the game barely accessible. And it'll only make 10+ hours a day crowd happier, since now time investment will give more of an advantage (whatever "advantage" in a primarily single player game means).

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you dont think a bladefall miner can one-shoot kole with a 4L ?
lol, a glove enchant and a totem can nearly one-shoot kole

definitely can near-one shot hillock
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XEz30ErIJac

So you don't have a video. Could've just admitted that you exaggerated, wildly. Would've saved time. Bladefall miner is the highest burst damage spec in the game currently (if we go per use). Will you use one mine? Will you use lvl 20 gem? Did you try it?

I play a lot of casters, almost all my chars are casters/trappers. No, it's not fucking "easy" to one shot Kole with a 4-link spell (not even discussing 3-link), even with all the power creep. You need to be overleveled, have very-very specific overleveled gems and gear to even approach one shot territory (we are talking Merciless Kole, aren't we?).

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Gear aquisition was harder three years ago, that's true. Was repeatedly farming docks or ledge, or doing Piety runs ad nauseum that fun though?

goalposts movement alert !
the discussion is about the difference in the game. you may consider something fun that I dont and vice versa. this isnt about that

Don't really understand what you mean by that, sorry. Difference in the game is that three years ago large part of it, from my perspective, was repeatedly farming docks or ledge or fellshrine hoping to get lucky and cap my resists at least. Now it's better for me, part of it - I got more knowledge, part of it - it became much easier playing solo self found, due to power creep. I don't miss those times three years ago one bit. Now, when I want a challenge, I would take one of my weaker builds in a tough map (or one of stronger builds in a very tough map) or do a Lab underleveled. When I don't, I don't have to grid a low level area looking for a crucial upgrade. That's a good thing in my book.

People have been asking for the ability to run any map they want... ggg gives players the ability to run any map they want... People upset cause they have nothing to complain about now.

Streamer loses interest in the game and needs to come up with reasons you should come watch him play that game instead. Psychology 101.
Game has constant updates every 3 to 4 months, don't like how it is now, come back in 3-6 months and try it again, quit acting like PoE is the only thing in the world you can occupy your time with.
Leveling isn't even a thing in D3, get power leveled for 45 minutes and you're level 70, still takes me a few days to level to map level and I've played the game almost as long as he has.
I agree most uniques suck, and I'm not entirely fond of the map system, would like to see this addressed one day but it isn't really anything new to the game or any other arpg for that matter. Don't try to act like you didn't get tired of seeing Sigon's set drop from Hell Mephisto every other run, you know it happened and you played anyway.
I still love the game and every league is pretty refreshing for me. If this changes, I'll play something else for a bit. *shrug*

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PaperRat написал:

What do you even mean by "selling out". It's not like GGG is your local revolutionary cell or something.

you don't know what selling out means ?

from wiki:

"Selling out is a common idiomatic pejorative expression for the compromising of a person's integrity, morality, authenticity, or principles in exchange for personal gain, such as money. In terms of music or art, selling out is associated with attempts to tailor material to a mainstream or commercial audience; for example, a musician who alters his material to encompass a wider audience, and in turn generates greater revenue, may be labeled by fans who pre-date the change as a sellout."

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I apologize if I'm wrong, but you start to sound like someone, who never had an actual job in their life. Which is not too bad a thing by itself, but one, probably, shouldn't argue points on the matter one have little first-hand experience with. Again, I'm sorry if my assumption is wrong.

I develop enterprise software for a living. One probably shouldn't make baseless assumptions, yeah ?

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Speaking of 60 people, you know, why they have that many? Cause they put up a whole bunch of new content every half a year and a smaller bunch of content every quarter. That anyone can enjoy. For free. They started as a three man studio in a garage.

I am very thankful for content updates, and GGG is one of the best small team companies Ive seen. I've never said otherwise.

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If you think their goal was to stay in a garage, you're delusional.

I dont care what their goal was. They made a game, which catered to one audience. They since have done a 180, going against their initial principles (at least ones that they voiced initially). This is definiton of selling out, or at least a bait and switch. Thankfully, like Ive said, it wasnt right at the get go.

sorry, I have zero tolerance policy for dumbing down/making more 'accessible' games. I have zero tolerance for mainstream or streamlining. sorry. I have nothing against mainstream games that start up as casual games. but there are very few niche games that dont cater to lowest common denominator on the market already, and I treat them like my children (if I had any) - if you make them handicapped after they were quite normal, you will earn my wrath.

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("mmorpg-ish"? examples please)

you see that 'GAME' button on the website ? click it and read the first paragraph

"Path of Exile is an online Action RPG set in the dark fantasy world of Wraeclast. It is designed around a strong online item economy, deep character customisation, competitive PvP and ladder races. "

quick, how many single player games are online, designed around online item economy and competitive pvp and ladder races ?

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Also a couple of examples of single player F2P games that make major content updates every half a year for at least three years straight and are hardcore crowd focused would shoot my argument down pretty quickly."

like Ive said, poe was never marketed as a single player game. it is starkly different from any other single player arpg you can play offline and mod and have different builds playable as branches. poe is a server-side game.

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Yep, people get more power easier now.

ok, good. baby steps.

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I disagree that it does anything for harsh learning curve. Game is still pretty unfriendly to casuals (casuals, by definition, mean they have little to no prior ARPG experience).

someone with no arpg experience ? the game isnt yet in full casual land, even though its moving towards there. Im still playing the game because its still not yet there.

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As I see it, the learning curve is the only real major challenge in PoE. Mechanically it's a pretty simple game by virtue of being an ARPG with a mouse controlled movement. There are mechanical challenges in the game (Atziri, Lab etc.), but I don't often see people complaining those are too easy.

arpgs arent 'hard' in general. the problem is average player power being much higher than before, which makes most of content laughable.

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So yeah, the major difference between 2013 and 2016 is that you have an extra 3 years of playtime under your belt.

how you arrived to this conclusion, makes no sense. no, the major difference is that player power is more than 10 times it used to be. you've admitted as much and now you're going into your own direction again.

when I first played this game, I made it into cruel overleveled. I picked up every item I could find, clearing every single area and even farming a few areas in the process, and ended up with like 1 rare item, the rest blues or whites.

I challenge you to play the game like Ive played TODAY, and count how many rare items you find this way. I assume it will be around 3 or 4 STASH TABS of rare items and quite a few uniques.

Im tired of using numerous examples of how limited the player was, and you responding in lazy generalizations

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You can take away power creep. For experienced players it'll only make the game more grindy.

the whole arpg is a game about GRIND. like weve established, ARPGS dont have mechanical or strategic difficulty. theyre purely a function of time

I love fucking grinding. this is why Im playing a game about grinding made by grinding gear games, yeah ? a hardcore arpg is the one that is punishing, challenging, complex and grindy, at least by my standards.

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For players that love weird builds it'll make the game less fun.

nonsense. I play weird builds all the time. I made a siege ballista scion using BoR and rearguard with max block. I played a MoM/Acro magma orb templar before ascendancy was a thing. Ive played a bow ice shot trapper way back when no one was playing bow trappers aside from puncture. I play nonoptimal builds because the optimal ones are so fucking boring because of power creep.

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For casuals it'll make the game barely accessible.

GOOD
you dont get this do you ?
I consider a GOOD THING. no, scratch that, a GREAT THING. a-fucking-mazing thing. the last thing I want is casuals coming into a niche game and attempting to bring it down to their level and level of the games they usually play. I will FIGHT DEARLY against this.

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So you don't have a video. Could've just admitted that you exaggerated, wildly. Would've saved time. Bladefall miner is the highest burst damage spec in the game currently (if we go per use). Will you use one mine? Will you use lvl 20 gem? Did you try it?

fine, Ill try it. Kripp was level 69 when he was one shot. I will try to find a toon on standard of that level and using level 69 gear cap I will try it. Ill make a video just for you. Im going to make a video for another guy first, facetanking excavation bosses with vuln and -max as a caster, I promised him because he thinks Im lying there as well.

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Don't really understand what you mean by that, sorry.

wiki to rescue again !

"Moving the goalposts, similar to "shifting sands" and also known as raising the bar, is an informal fallacy in which evidence presented in response to a specific claim is dismissed and some other (often greater) evidence is demanded. That is, after an attempt has been made to score a goal, the goalposts are moved to exclude the attempt.[3] The problem with changing the rules of the game is that the meaning of the end result is changed, too.[4]"

meaning, the discussion was about changes in the game, not whether or not they are 'fun', which is purely subjective and besides the point at all.
I dont really care whats fun for you- sorry. we look for different fun. my 'fun' and casual fun are diametrically opposite. my fun is when the game bends me over and fucks me mercilessly, my fun is grinding zana 8 solo or 300 boss drops without dumb shortcuts.

casual fun is when they are given a blowjob for moving their mouse here and there.

your point about 'fun' is meaningless. we dont look for the same thing.

I really don't know why I read this whole goddamn thread considering I've never played Diablo 3.

I figure if I want to be able to contribute to these discussions I'll have to play it at one point or another but I don't want to have to buy it only to discover that I don't enjoy it like I did with that WoW expansion a year or two ago.

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crystalwitch написал:

I really don't know why I read this whole goddamn thread considering I've never played Diablo 3.

I figure if I want to be able to contribute to these discussions I'll have to play it at one point or another but I don't want to have to buy it only to discover that I don't enjoy it like I did with that WoW expansion a year or two ago.

the best way to play d3, tbh, was pre-nerf inferno or at least when ubers were a challenge

the item progression was absolutely fucked, but at least the damage of mobs made it interesting in pre-nerf inferno. after the nerfs, it became a bit too ez, but ubers were still fun. and right now I hear ubers are absolute pushovers

oh btw, about devs and making shit accessible to larger audience

word to Ron Gilbert, the monkey island guru, talking about his new p&c game, timbleweed park

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I've shown the game to a few people, and they immediately start trying to optimize the UI. "Do you really need verbs?" or "Can all the touchable objects in the room glow?" Or they worry about new players. "Some kind of pop-up help would be nice here." or "How are you going to on-board the user?"

No, no, no. I keep saying. This is a classic point & click adventure game. It's going to turn some people off. We know that, and we don't care.

We're not building a modern adventure game with all the rough edges sanded away and a safety net, ready to catch even the smallest misstep or endless rewarding of the player for the completion of mundane tasks. I know a lot of modern players want to constantly be told how great they are and how amazing they're doing. This is not one of those games.

Im guessing this is a guy who also 'never had a job in his life' eh ?

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Perq написал:

Excuse me? Pohx? Dude who always played clear-speed-meta sanic-gotta-go-fast builds, and pushed that meta further?

EXCUSE ME?!

Gotta admit I it is good giggle to see people lose their shit over Essence league, where it is obvious it is gonna be Talisman 2.0 level of useless. Lol.

100%

Double agreed on fact that Essence league, where it is obvious it is gonna be Talisman 2.0 level of useless! Double this.
Essence will be ultra rare and to complete you will need so much maps and time that you will better sell it then use. Its not chaos orb its shit trade currency as new eternal orb, but worse.

Also mention it in my thread https://www.pathofexile.com/forum/view-thread/1711672 Essence will be bad for sure!