i love new arctic armour as long as...

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grepman написал:

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Snorkle_uk написал:

that proves nothing, you need to have very high regen to even effectively use it as a short buff.

lol I cant believe what Im reading, literally. stationary lvl 20 AA on live costs 40 mana/sec.
how hard is it to get 40 mana per second ?

devs literally state this several times, both on forums and on stream. yet youre STILL arguing this ?

the whole point was to have it manageable when stationary and large drain on moving you cant have it always on UNLESS you invest into it heavily

hard enough that none of my mana based attack characters have 40 per sec as far as I know.

Im not arguing with the idea that its not designed solely to be sustained, I do remember them saying when it was released that it was designed for characters with excessive mana regen, and thats what I said. You are under the impression that showing me statements saying it wasnt designed to always be sustained counters what I said, and I said what I said in full knowledge of those statements before you chipped in. I dont know where the video or the post or the interview is where that was said as its been over 2 years since then, but it was said. The not being sustained statement does not counter that. the dev may not have been speaking to the totality of the skills design intentions, they can say whatever they want about it now, but at the time what I said was stated was stated and nothing you have quoted actually goes against it.

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grepman написал:

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The devs who said "years from now when people create perfect versions of the new weapon bases..." years... not days as is the reality, years... because they know everything right?

they were right until they introduced a mechanic that fucked it up. they said road to 100 should take ages, because of maps system, which they redid.
do you know WHY they did all of these changes ? to appease people who qq'd about crafting and map systems. if they stuck to their design, what they said would STILL be true. and I have good memory, I remember which side you were on in the map debate

they were right until they introduced eternal orbs. K. Well they made this statement about a month or two ago, and they introduced eternals orbs when exactly? So they were right until about 2 years before they made the statement, so what they said was true for -2 years.

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grepman написал:

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Snorkle_uk написал:

so what you are saying is the devs can finally design mana degen skills... in a thread where we discuss how they have removed the only existing mana degen skill and made it a mana % reserve?

seriously?

like ive said- I dont think AA change was necessary with the EB change.

but it was made, made AFTER the eb change, and it invalidates what you said.

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grepman написал:

unlike some people, I dont throw tantrums when there are changes I disagree with

Im not throwing a tantrum, Im mercilessly trashing some of the changes and the reasons for them and pulling no punches in doing so, and Im being brutally honest about how I think the changes effect the game. Sry if you dont like it but trying to make out Im being childishly upset rather than just being very cutting and judgmental isnt going to change what I think or how Im expressing it. Theres a lot of changes I disagree with where I havent said a word about them. You cna try and insult me all you want, keep being a no holds bared apologist clutching for excuses like "they cna make mana drain skills now" while they remove the only mana drain skill in the game, it wont blunt my tongue on these issues.

I dont qq all the time, far from it.

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Snorkle_uk написал:

hard enough that none of my mana based attack characters have 40 per sec as far as I know.

its not hard to get 40 mana regen/sec if the payoff is lvl 20 AA, come on now.

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Im not arguing with the idea that its not designed solely to be sustained, I do remember them saying when it was released that it was designed for characters with excessive mana regen, and thats what I said. You are under the impression that showing me statements saying it wasnt designed to always be sustained counters what I said, and I said what I said in full knowledge of those statements before you chipped in. I dont know where the video or the post or the interview is where that was said as its been over 2 years since then, but it was said. The not being sustained statement does not counter that. the dev may not have been speaking to the totality of the skills design intentions, they can say whatever they want about it now, but at the time what I said was stated was stated and nothing you have quoted actually goes against it.

I dont disagree with it being designed for characters that possibly had extra mana regen to spare, because it clearly would extend buff duration. I disagree with, I quote "It was designed to be an eb buff, it was designed to be exclusive," like hell it wasnt.

the fact that you equate having extra mana regen and EB shows how stupidly broken EB is on live.

your mana regen shoudlnt be dependent on taking EB. simple as that. the new solution is not that great, but its still MILES better than the old one, because it doesnt make your total mana pool and mana regen scale linearly with ES.

if mana regen only comes from EB, EB is fucking broken. I dont get what not to get about this. again, there literally isnt a single viable life-based caster build that would be better off not taking EB on live, as opposed to taking it. and its not just because of AA and MOM

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they were right until they introduced eternal orbs. K. Well they made this statement about a month or two ago, and they introduced eternals orbs when exactly? So they were right until about 2 years before they made the statement, so what they said was true for -2 years.

they said it two months ago ? link ?

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Snorkle_uk написал:

but it was made, made AFTER the eb change, and it invalidates what you said.

how does it invalidate anything ? this makes zero sense. changing EB allows for skills/mechanics down the road and some existing skills benefit from not being balanced around EB. that doesnt mean devs cant take a skill they inteded to be something else as opposed to the way it is used now, and change its mechanics. it's not connected, really. you try to make AA and EB connected, but they're really not after the change to EB. and thats BEAUTIFUL. the less bottleneck keystones, the better.

because, let me spell it out for you again, EB != mana regen. EB != mana pool. EB should be merely a conversion mechanism that lets you convert unneeded trash into usable thing for a steep price.
you need to WORK toward mana regen and mana pool. old EB was a no-brainer. its like if an armour based toon could convert all of his armour into mana without downside (and appropriate scaling). any toon who isnt speccing complete into armour (<10k armour) would gladly do that.

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grepman написал:

Im not throwing a tantrum, Im mercilessly trashing some of the changes and the reasons for them and pulling no punches in doing so, and Im being brutally honest about how I think the changes effect the game. Sry if you dont like it but trying to make out Im being childishly upset rather than just being very cutting and judgmental isnt going to change what I think or how Im expressing it. Theres a lot of changes I disagree with where I havent said a word about them. You cna try and insult me all you want, keep being a no holds bared apologist clutching for excuses like "they cna make mana drain skills now" while they remove the only mana drain skill in the game, it wont blunt my tongue on these issues.

I dont qq all the time, far from it.

I never made any insults towards you. you thinking you know more than the devs, and thinking that you can actually speak and think for them, kinda speaks for itself.

and I cant call your post in that RM thread any less than a tantrum- talking 'bout how you wont play new leagues and only play standard and they dont play their game and how the game is ruined and all other nonsense.
all because of RM/enlighten change which is literally negligible in grand scheme of things. that shit WAS childish and theres no way around it. reminded me of times people qqing because of aura changes announced before the release.

I wont play attack builds outside of cyclone new leagues, that is stating a reality and a sad reality at that, if that is the consequence of what they are doing and one that I dont like then Im going to be vocal about it. Im not making a threat, its not a tantrum, its not childish, its not an ultimatum "omg if you do X Ill do Y" its the truth, a simple fact, this change means the game for me will change in this fashion and this is not a good thing, purely a statement of reality.

Level 20 AA payoff... on an attack character I wouldnt bother investing anything to have level 20 AA for when I stand still, it barely does anything worth talking about, Id take more damage than it mitigates just bothering to turn it on rather than attacking right away. Ive never seen anyone use it that way because its a completely impractical idea. If thats what its designed to do its a terrible design, its like square wheels.

I could go through your other points as I disagree with most of them but really, there is no point, I think what I think, you think differently, I dont care to discuss this any further as nothing I say will change your mind and you will just keep posting stuff I completely disagree with and I could rattle out a book contradicting it endlessly. It will never end, unless I just say enough, so enough, think what you want, I disagree.

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Snorkle_uk написал:

Level 20 AA payoff... on an attack character I wouldnt bother investing anything to have level 20 AA for when I stand still, it barely does anything worth talking about, Id take more damage than it mitigates just bothering to turn it on rather than attacking right away. Ive never seen anyone use it that way because its a completely impractical idea. If thats what its designed to do its a terrible design, its like square wheels.

I agree- it wasnt the best design, so they re-designed it. they dont like toons keeping perma-buffs on which in their mind should be situational. it's their call. Im sure RF which I love, will get the boot soon too. and I will take it and like it, because its their game and not mine and I understand that RF wasnt designed to be perma-on feature, and lots of max res stuff has to be rebalanced around RF toons becoming a bit too powerful

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I could go through your other points as I disagree with most of them but really, there is no point, I think what I think, you think differently, I dont care to discuss this any further as nothing I say will change your mind and you will just keep posting stuff I completely disagree with and I could rattle out a book contradicting it endlessly. It will never end, unless I just say enough, so enough, think what you want, I disagree.

meh its clear you and me disagree from the first post, but we can have a civil argument- I thought we were doing fine before that, I enjoy these things. *shrugs* its nothing personal. the only thing I think we severely disagreed on in the last post was EB being synonymous with mana regen/man pool is broken, which is weird because I thought we came to conclusion that old EB was way too powerful a lot of time ago.
Im always willing to change my mind by the way- if convinced with arguments that are sound. theres stuff that is subjective like how each one of us views the developers/players relationship we will never agree on, but other stuff - why not ? showing some caster/life builds that were better off not taking EB in the live game would be a great first step in me admitting I am wrong. I am a man, I am wrong quite often, and am not afraid to admit I'm wrong.

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grepman написал:

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Snorkle_uk написал:

Level 20 AA payoff... on an attack character I wouldnt bother investing anything to have level 20 AA for when I stand still, it barely does anything worth talking about, Id take more damage than it mitigates just bothering to turn it on rather than attacking right away. Ive never seen anyone use it that way because its a completely impractical idea. If thats what its designed to do its a terrible design, its like square wheels.

I agree- it wasnt the best design, so they re-designed it. they dont like toons keeping perma-buffs on which in their mind should be situational. it's their call. Im sure RF which I love, will get the boot soon too. and I will take it and like it, because its their game and not mine and I understand that RF wasnt designed to be perma-on feature, and lots of max res stuff has to be rebalanced around RF toons becoming a bit too powerful

well, maybe theyll turn rf into a perm reserve buff and that will solve the problem of it being used as a perm buff :D.

Too cheeky? Sry couldnt resist, but you got to admit its kind of funny that AA is now a true perma buff after what they said. But Im just playing, I just said that for the lols.

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grepman написал:

meh its clear you and me disagree from the first post, but we can have a civil argument- I thought we were doing fine before that, I enjoy these things. *shrugs* its nothing personal. the only thing I think we severely disagreed on in the last post was EB being synonymous with mana regen/man pool is broken, which is weird because I thought we came to conclusion that old EB was way too powerful a lot of time ago.
Im always willing to change my mind by the way- if convinced with arguments that are sound. theres stuff that is subjective like how each one of us views the developers/players relationship we will never agree on, but other stuff - why not ? showing some caster/life builds that were better off not taking EB in the live game would be a great first step in me admitting I am wrong. I am a man, I am wrong quite often, and am not afraid to admit I'm wrong.

Look, its all good mate, Im tired, its 9 am here and Im off to bed to read a book, I just dont want to continue debating it all tomorrow etc, Im sure no one else is even reading this by now anyway and theyre thinking "guys, get a room".


I agree eb was way too strong, I strongly disagree with what they did to it, imo should have nerfed it not redesigned it into what it is now, but of course I agree that something needed done about EB and especially COD, it was getting ridiculous how in demand that setup was. It literally felt like 50% of the player base wanted to be eb cod aa in the 1m type leagues. Theres a few builds, theres some bm gem builds no doubt still knocking around and theres hybrid life + es builds, I have some hybrid builds with over 8k combined life pool, you can hit 10k, 12k combined life and es going that route, ghost reaver, 5k life, life flasks, keep your life regen on life, 5k+ es on top. Its rare though, rare enough that it virtually doesnt count when looking at the bigger picture. I feel like eb became like Iron Reflexes used to be, ultimately the most powerful builds are ones without it, like hybrid or ci when you look at gg gear setups are so much stronger than mom aa eb, miles stronger. But it became a dirty habit that was used in like 99% of cases and thats way too much. Ultimately they never obliterated IR by making it something completely different, people called for it to be smashed into the ground or just flat out removed for ages and they took away the dex thing but really, they just left it alone pretty much unchanged and looked at why people didnt want to use evasion, fixed that and then the problem vanished. EB needed nerfed, it wasnt enough to just make alternatives more appealing, I just think what they did to it is horrible.

Ive never heard them actually say EB was too strong and thats what they wanted to change tho, the reason they gave for the change was that it fixed MoM AA giving too much mitigation, and that is a statement that I could disagree with forever. MoM doesnt give any mitigation, mana is not an infinite resource, its just more life. Having 30% of damage taken from mana, if thats counting as 30% mitigation then energy shield is 100% mitigation because 100% of damage is taken from es before life... but its not, it doesnt mitigate anything, its a finite resource like life, it is just essentially more life points with which to take damage. I could say I have a 4k life build but I have 100% mitigation from all sources... how? Well I have 5.5k life so that extra 1.5k life is taking 100% of the incoming damage so my 4k portion effectively has 100% mitigation... no thats not right at all, you have 5.5k life and zero mitigation if thats the sum total of your defense. The total mitigation given by MoM AA is listed on the AA gem, and against even medium hits that matter its completely outclassed by pretty trivial amounts of armour, a form of mitigation that everyone thinks is trash. Did MoM give too much life? Well, compared to what? an 8-12k life hybrid? a 10-14k life ci? It was a budget option, and what it gave you was a pretty budget result if were being honest, you ended up with a 6-8k life pool character.

Do spells do as much damage as dagger, wand or bow attacks? Nope. But again, budget, spells are a poor mans build, and mom aa eb was a poor mans defense for a poor mans build, most people are poor, in a new league situation everyone is poor, theyre not rolling cod arcers and pizza blasters because its more powerful than a shavs 400pdps dagger thrower. On some level it feels like saying statistics show most people are in low paid jobs, then coming to the conclusion that low paid jobs are obviously paying too much and thats causing the trend, then deciding to rebalance it by reducing the pay of low paid jobs to encourage people to take high paid jobs, as if it was a choice they made. ES int gear builds = eb, hybrid, ci, low life... why are most people playing eb? Maybe because thats not a list of choices, its 1 reality and 3 fantasies. Im not sure this all really fixes that, it just says roll an int class but dont use int gear, use dex or strength gear instead, to me that feels flawed on a fundamental level.

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Snorkle_uk написал:

MoM doesnt give any mitigation, mana is not an infinite resource, its just more life. Having 30% of damage taken from mana, if thats counting as 30% mitigation then energy shield is 100% mitigation because 100% of damage is taken from es before life...

I was saying this in some thread a while ago, but the reason MoM is regarded as mitigation and ES is regarded as a life extension because with MoM you're always taking damage with both pools at once and it's much easier to replenish both of them at the same time. With ES the only time you're taking damage with both pools is on 50:50 physical/chaos hits, and most replenishing methods are exclusive, you can't regen both at the same time and you can't leech both at the same time.

As long as you regain lost mana faster than lost life it's an effectively infinite resource and will behave as mitigation, ES doesn't do that except in that one special case.

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raics написал:

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Snorkle_uk написал:

MoM doesnt give any mitigation, mana is not an infinite resource, its just more life. Having 30% of damage taken from mana, if thats counting as 30% mitigation then energy shield is 100% mitigation because 100% of damage is taken from es before life...

I was saying this in some thread a while ago, but the reason MoM is regarded as mitigation and ES is regarded as a life extension because with MoM you're always taking damage with both pools at once and it's much easier to replenish both of them at the same time. With ES the only time you're taking damage with both pools is on 50:50 physical/chaos hits, and most replenishing methods are exclusive, you can't regen both at the same time and you can't leech both at the same time.

Or one could just stick to the linguistic meaning and call every mechanism that protects life by decreasing damage taken by life "mitigation".

Seems to be the usual language use:

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Mark_GGG написал:

Usually, ES is protecting life, and will mitigate it (at least initially) because the ES needs to be burned away before life can be damaged.

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raics написал:

As long as you regain lost mana faster than lost life it's an effectively infinite resource and will behave as mitigation, ES doesn't do that except in that one special case.

Usually that ain't the case. I tried mom once with my incinerate char and if it weren't for Lavianga's Spirit i'ld be sitting at zero mana, unable to cast, in many fights.
BTW with ZO energy shield behaves the same way as the mana pool.

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Bada_Bing написал:

Usually that ain't the case. I tried mom once with my incinerate char and if it weren't for Lavianga's Spirit i'ld be sitting at zero mana, unable to cast, in many fights.
BTW with ZO energy shield behaves the same way as the mana pool.

Replenishing both resources isn't the main problem here, mana/life just does it a bit more easily, the problem is taking all damage on either of your pools, that means half of your leech/regen or whatever is wasted 95% of the time. Actually, I believe life/ES hybrids would be very popular if we had a jewel or something that splits damage 50/50 between life and ES.

We could have a look at what do you theoretically need to play MoM.
- For the amount, you would ideally need 30% of your life but a bit lower would be fine too because you don't really use all of your life globe, most of the time you're above low life, so 25% would suffice. So, if your life is 4k, that would mean around 1K of free mana is fine. - If you reserved 50% of it that would mean the total amount is 2k which is doable without EB, but it would mean some sacrifices in aura department.
- Assuming you cap both leech rates you will leech 20% life and 12,5% mana, if we use quality mana leech gem that's 15%. With our numbers that means we would need 240 mana per second to match life leech on that side, but let's take it up to 300 to cover for the skill use. As it happens, those 15% leech rate are exactly 300 mana per second so we're fine (that wasn't on purpose, I swear :).

So, it should be doable and a physical attacker wouldn't even need the mana leech gem if he gets some regen to cover for the quality bonus. The previous location for MoM kinda sucked because you couldn't get 2k mana easily, there were decent mana clusters but the base was low, your mana gains per level are a third of your life gains, but int gives the same amount of mana as str so your position on the tree matters a lot.

I wonder what would happen if there was a mana equivalent to vaal pact, or at least some mana leech rate on items :)

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raics написал:

Actually, I believe life/ES hybrids would be very popular if we had a jewel or something that splits damage 50/50 between life and ES.

There you go. :)
Though I don't think life/ES hybrid will truly be popular for various reasons. We will see.

- when building life/AR and life/EV characters you usually focus on life first and build the mitigation stat as a luxury. This is not possible for life/ES without crippling your life leech rate or regen or both. If you want to do mixed defences like life/ES+EV it's even worse (while life/AR+EV is possible and not weak at all). This is half the reason EB/MoM has been much more popular than real hybrid - manageable character buildup.

- changes to Blood Rage make hybrid life/ES very undesirable as Blood Rage is huge with the new Frenzy charges (even more so for physical attackers).

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Zed_ написал:

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raics написал:

Actually, I believe life/ES hybrids would be very popular if we had a jewel or something that splits damage 50/50 between life and ES.

There you go. :)
Though I don't think life/ES hybrid will truly be popular for various reasons. We will see.

Hot daaamn, I missed that one, I'll give it a shot for sure :)

Sure, it's not as good as I'd hoped because of physical-only restriction but it should be fun nonetheless, the big selling point of MoM is working with all damage types.