Blade Vortex vs Shaper (Guess who was utterly destroyed in that fight?)

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ScrotieMcB написал:

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I_NO написал:

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sidtherat написал:

the true problem IS and ALWAYS HAS BEEN - instant leech

remove instant leech (in all forms) from the game and suddenly most of the broken idiotic stuff is gone

this one f.. keystone (and few items) ruin any resemblance of being serious about game design ggg tried to make

no

yes.

Sorry, sid is right. Leech itself is a problematic mechanic, converting DPS into tankiness. I think not having leech at all is probably the best design, but if it must exist don't make it instant.

I know reflected damage is BS too. Should also get removed.

That's not being realistic though.

A far better solution more in line with poe as it is now would be to simply change the wording of VP to 'Damage leeched as life applies instantly, Life Regeneration has no effect' - meaning you can't leech es instantly.

Okay pros. take out instant leech. This does not directly correlate into GGG taking one-shot mechanics out of the game.

Pathfinder will be nerfed to not allow the steady refill of flasks that it does now. If that one thing is changed, all of the sudden using BV on shaper fights becomes a skill fight and not a "piano player" fight.

Keep telling yourself instant leech is the issue it isn't. I know you guys love to wax poetic on your pedestals of brilliant game design...but interestingly enough none of you have a game of your own?

What is the solution then? Please explain it to dumbasses like me.

Remove instant leech? Okay check. So how does this immediately translate into GGG changing mechanics in the game that one-shot? They won't.

P.S. Please use small words, It's hard for me to understand philosopher-talk that you guys usually banter around with.

Also if you wouldn't mind, stop bringing in open/closed beta bullshit examples into this conversation. The game has changed a lot since then. Its a fucking different game now. Talk about the game now. Not the game as it was.

Instant, zero-cooldown healing limits design space by rendering attrition damage irrelevant against builds with access to it. That's bad.

But instant leech isn't the only reason to have one-shot mechanics. As I explained earlier, the highly-telegraphed one-shot is kinda necessary to ensure player attention (and kill bot-controlled characters). So removing zero-cooldown instant healing isn't so much about "no more one-shots" as it is about "let's have one-shots AND attrition-based combat."

OMG THERE IS A BUILD THAT DOESN'T GET ONE SHOTTED.

NEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEERRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFF!!!"!

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Okay pros. take out instant leech. This does not directly correlate into GGG taking one-shot mechanics out of the game.

Well leech has nothing to do with one shots. if you are one shot no leech in the world would help.

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Pathfinder will be nerfed to not allow the steady refill of flasks that it does now. If that one thing is changed, all of the sudden using BV on shaper fights becomes a skill fight and not a "piano player" fight.

You can recreate the same thing with claws, the issue though is the damage is really lacking compared to BV so you are invulnerable but don't get that much damage. That is of course unless your a lowlife, which is not as strong anymore but you can still pretty much outleech any damage. Also people did exactly that before Pathfinder and BV even existed. And it is even more reliable than BV since BV doesn't hit that often (only twice per second) which makes it possible to get hit in between. Claws avoid this issue, because they reach far higher APS.

Technically a Berserker could do it as long as he takes constant heavy hits. Instant leech is a huge issue, because instead of putting your defenses against the enemy damage you suddenly put your damage against enemy damage, which means the best way to get tankier is to get either more leech or more damage.

So lets just assume Instant Leech is gone. Would that fight be possible. No. But now take the Pathfinder away, you might need a few more defenses (not sure how much the other Flask benefits are required in that fight, but you could roll a few Surgeons anyway, so no need for Pathfinder), and someone with a Life Leech Gem or Warlords Mark might do exactly the same. If you have only the conversation Flask, so 20% Lightning Damage you actually only need 4% Life Leech to get the same effect as you get from Vinktars. And you need neither Vinktar nor Pathfinder to have it.

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A far better solution more in line with poe as it is now would be to simply change the wording of VP to 'Damage leeched as life applies instantly, Life Regeneration has no effect' - meaning you can't leech es instantly.

Well this would kill Leech for CI entirely though. Also the issue isn't that much better with Life based chars. Yes you might have to dodge at least a few things because your HP pool is smaller, but most things don't deal enough damage to oneshot you, so it doesn't really make a big difference.

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Remove instant leech? Okay check. So how does this immediately translate into GGG changing mechanics in the game that one-shot? They won't.

That is basically an argument against every change they ever did. Of course will they change the game if they do a major overhaul to mechanics. Also the game is not that spiky in terms of damage because of instant leech. I'm not even sure if it is that spiky. The thing is with a modular set of mobs, mob-affixes and map-affixes it is very likely that you create situations that are deadly, there isn't really a way to change that and it shouldn't be changed, because that's how it works. For most actual fixed encounters (like Atziri, Izaro or Malachai) the damage isn't that spiky, there are oneshots, and basically the rule is the easier an attack is to avoid the harder it hits. Now for Malachai we all know how much a few mods can make the fight a mess. And that is basically all that is happening.

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MasterTBC2 написал:

OMG THERE IS A BUILD THAT DOESN'T GET ONE SHOTTED.

NEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEERRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFF!!!"!

Actually the correct line of thinking is,

"How can we move the game into a direction that allows less builds to be one-shot"

Maybe a bridge to far for you.

Peace,

-Boem-

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ScrotieMcB написал:

Instant, zero-cooldown healing limits design space by rendering attrition damage irrelevant against builds with access to it. That's bad.

But instant leech isn't the only reason to have one-shot mechanics. As I explained earlier, the highly-telegraphed one-shot is kinda necessary to ensure player attention (and kill bot-controlled characters). So removing zero-cooldown instant healing isn't so much about "no more one-shots" as it is about "let's have one-shots AND attrition-based combat."

Explain to me what is highly-telegrapghed about the racecourse boss that has reflect damage that isn't even LABELED when you mouse over the boss. No visible reflect aura. Nothing. You see the enemy charging at you...you try and fight back...and die instantly.

If running into a brick wall = "highly-telegraphed" then maybe I don't understand what you are talking about.

I'm not talking about malachai and dom slams here. We are talking about the slew of bullshit mechanics that all for players to either oneshot themselves or be one-shot without warning.

In fact, most people will agree that one-shot highly-telegraphed attacks are what make most boss encounters FUN. The issue is not those types of attacks.

Also...I told you to use small words for me.

So what we have now BV/PF + Remove VP + more one shot mechanik + make meele more worse = Fun play really.
P.S Oh GGG dont forget remove all life/ES nodes from skill tree to be one shoted for sure.

dp sorry

I really wish that people who advocate why VP+CI is good would give out valid lines of thought instead of sarcasm & one liners.

No offense to the few people who do, but the majority doesn't.