Blade Vortex vs Shaper (Guess who was utterly destroyed in that fight?)

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Trylobyte написал:

I think there's one thing here we can all agree on.

Blade Vortex is overtuned due to its very large number of hits per second when stacked and its lack of reliance on weapon damage.
Pathfinder is overtuned because unique flasks are very powerful and Pathfinder focuses on the sustainability of flasks.
Vaal Pact makes sustaining through a fight very easy if you hit a lot and do a lot of damage.

Combine all three of these things, mix well, bake for half an hour at 400 degrees, and voila, a deliciously overpowered cake.

i dont have an issue with bv's damage . not a single one . we have to remember at the end of the day it carries a similar risk factor to some melee skills in that you have to go right into the thick of things . such a skill would normally need the better implicit damage to offset all the investment needed in staying alive .

no different than any of the popular melee skills being offset by the fact that the melee character needs to spend an entire tree grabbing life nodes .

the problem again is that defensive investment isnt happening because of leech and vaal pact.

you dont need physical mitigation if you leech 15k es a second
you dont need elemental mitigation if you leech 15k es a second
you dont really need to worry about crits or dots or bleed etc because nothing in this game is going to keep up with 15k es per second .. it cant

all you need is a pool that can survive any one hit and you are done . that is your defense

the game is not meant to have a mechanic in which you have 100% life regen per second.. because then normal shit would be worthless.

it is beyond clear that the best solution is to make that 15k leech per second go away. nothing else need be done for now.

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Saltychipmunk написал:

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SerenaDrake написал:

How dramatically all started by BV/PF and what we see now REMOVE VP ,so what next??

Lets clear one thing up , people have been complaining about VP since long before BV was a twinkle and some developer eye.


All BV is.. is a perfectly packaged example of why the mechanic is flawed and needs to die . nothing more and nothing less.

If you really will solve problem with BV/PF look into the core (beacause VP is not ). Even we remove VP that change nothing because people who have legacy Vessels will continue to faceroll everything.

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SerenaDrake написал:

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Saltychipmunk написал:

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SerenaDrake написал:

How dramatically all started by BV/PF and what we see now REMOVE VP ,so what next??

Lets clear one thing up , people have been complaining about VP since long before BV was a twinkle and some developer eye.


All BV is.. is a perfectly packaged example of why the mechanic is flawed and needs to die . nothing more and nothing less.

If you really will solve problem with BV/PF look into the core (beacause VP is not ). Even we remove VP that change nothing because people who have legacy Vessels will continue to faceroll everything.

There is a reason why they are called "legacy" they are impossible to balance for . you know that already.. so why would you bring them up in a balance discussion.

By their very nature legacy items are supposed to not be balanced. they are tangible proof of ggg's balance failings.

but,......
this might be a case where they can in fact nerf even the legacy flasks . by targeting the life leeches instantly mod , that mod is the problem here therefore they can target that mod (much how they nerfed chaos conversion and created no legacy items )

this means acuity would be nerfed , vp would be nerfed and legacy vinktars flasks would be nerfed

best solution would be to an improved leech rate mod.. say 50% increased leech rate or something.

I have a legacy

And i will still say nerf the shit out of that mod

You forgot about Bloodseeker Hellion's Paw and Atziri's Acuity if we remove instand leech this two get riped to. To much lose to balance one broken build ,GGG will never do that.

So many morons assume that removing instant leech = GGG will change one-shot mechanics. How the hell did you come to this stretch conclusion.

Want to remove instant leech? Better take reflect damage with that shit then.

I love how single-sided, somewhat ignorant players think that instant leech is the issue.

none of these issues existed before BV. Ask yourself why? BV is the first skill we've had where you can stand still and hit 100x per second with a single skill. We used to have cyclone behave similarly and 4 waves of nerfs have turned that skill into a challenge to use effectively.

Instant leech is not the culprit here. It's GGG's failed understanding of "If you hit 1 million times really fast with instant leech it could be cheesed".

The concept wasn't difficult to think about. It's the fact that GGG didn't play test the skill properly before releasing. Now that BV is out in the wild, it's going to get the pussyfoot approach like CoC did for years. They'll try to fix it over iterations but ultimately will be one of the OP skills that kind of lingers around and kills the "meta" [fuck the meta by the way I hate that word].

You can't simply say remove instant leech. Players with that opinion don't really understand end game mechanics if they are suggesting something so stupid.

Flask mechanics in conjunction with fast hitting skills is the root of the issue here. Those are what should be focused on.

Pathfinder is simply too good. There has to be some limits put on it's ability to gain flasks. Look what they did with the elementalist! I'm sure Pathfinder will get similar treatment.

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Prisus написал:

none of these issues existed before BV. Ask yourself why? BV is the first skill we've had where you can stand still and hit 100x per second with a single skill. We used to have cyclone behave similarly and 4 waves of nerfs have turned that skill into a challenge to use effectively.

Instant leech is not the culprit here. It's GGG's failed understanding of "If you hit 1 million times really fast with instant leech it could be cheesed".

lol what are you on about? people were face taking shit in the closed and open beta all the time .. why the hell do you think leech was nerfed? what did you think Chris woke up one day thinking "fuck them leech using assholes"


attack speed has nothing to do with it , as long as you dont do enough damage to out do your leech and one shot your self you can have as much or as little speed as you want. hit 1 large time works , hit 100 times works , hit 1000 times works too. as long as that simple rule is followed the other numbers are arbitrary


hell coc was doing this before blade vortex was .. fuck it multi-strike cleave was doing this before blade vortex was

if you call other people stupid do your self a solid and do some simple fact checking first . it took me 30 seconds to find examples . 30 i am willing to bet if i put effort in i could get that down to 10 seconds

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I_NO написал:

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sidtherat написал:

the true problem IS and ALWAYS HAS BEEN - instant leech

remove instant leech (in all forms) from the game and suddenly most of the broken idiotic stuff is gone

this one f.. keystone (and few items) ruin any resemblance of being serious about game design ggg tried to make

no

yes.

Sorry, sid is right. Leech itself is a problematic mechanic, converting DPS into tankiness. I think not having leech at all is probably the best design, but if it must exist don't make it instant.

I know reflected damage is BS too. Should also get removed.

no relfect should be in the game , it should however be something that can be built around realistically

it should not be an on off switch as it is vaal pact.

but the fact is reflect is a useful tool for limiting derpy ass glass cannon builds. hell i can say with confidence that atleast part of the problem with clear speed meta right now is because all those nagging clear speed player got their way and had reflect nerfed.

reflect as it is in most cases is a complete joke . the one ones that actually hurt are the map mods and some boss encounters

you have to really really push your self to die to the pathetic reflect mod that spawns on rares as is

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ScrotieMcB написал:

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I_NO написал:

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sidtherat написал:

the true problem IS and ALWAYS HAS BEEN - instant leech

remove instant leech (in all forms) from the game and suddenly most of the broken idiotic stuff is gone

this one f.. keystone (and few items) ruin any resemblance of being serious about game design ggg tried to make

no

yes.

Sorry, sid is right. Leech itself is a problematic mechanic, converting DPS into tankiness. I think not having leech at all is probably the best design, but if it must exist don't make it instant.

I know reflected damage is BS too. Should also get removed.

Don't worry I_NO, removing VP is like breaking your hymen.

Doubtful at first if it was the right choice, but opening up a world of pleasure in the aftermath.

@Prisus, fuck no, on most accounts.

The first one-shot introduced into the game if you had sufficient defenses was vaal-overlord.
A beautifully telegraphed one-shot that all players took pleasure in dying to, because it was a stress/error induced one-shot.

Guess what came first, vaal-overlord or instant recovery methods.

Everybody with a bit of intelligence knows the game was forced to evolve into regular one-shots due to the later.

Peace,

-Boem-

Here's the way I see it, salty...

The more tanky you are, the easier and less skill-intensive the game should be.

The more glassy you are, the better your clearspeed, the better your XP and loot per unit the, the more rewarding the game becomes. But harder, because more things are lethal to you.

These should always be a trade-off. Easier game is fine, but less loot per unit time. Push players to have maximum piloting skill with manual dodges and careful positioning, but give them an out to tank it instead, at the cost of clearspeed.

The clearspeed incentive should cause players to build as minimally tanky as their piloting skills allow, keeping the game challenging yet doable for them. You could still build ridiculously tanky so you could ignore 98% of threats and just face most of the time, but the game shouldn't reward such autopilot play.

And there should always be some high-telegraph-time, easily-avoided stuff which just murders everyone, regardless of tankiness. Just to make sure you're still paying attention.

This creates a meta where personal piloting skill is a relevant build evaluation factor, so the best build for you isn't necessarily the best for me.

Neither leech nor reflected damage fit that philosophy. Leech erodes the tanky/glassy dichotomy. Reflected Damage is a non-telegraphed damage source, forcing a certain degree of tankiness and thus eroding the skill cap.