poe is still the most p2w game ive ever played
" What he did, was to show the contrast between theory and practice. Things aren't black or white; they are always somewhere in between. The definition of "P2W" doesn't matter in the long run; what matters is how the game plays and how it affects you as a player. IF you play in trade league AND you want to trade, stash tabs are arguably required, so yes, for most players, PoE is P2W. But we're talking about a one-time purchase here of a few dollars that will enable you to trade forever. If OP wants to call that "the most P2W game ever", that's fine. I think it's classic hyperbole and online fishing/trolling, just to create reactions. Bring me some coffee and I'll bring you a smile.
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There are programs that we have used since the dawn of PoE that enabled trade, and they dont cost a dime. Unless they dont exist anymore, there goes the entire p2w argument, which in my opinion, is out of touch to begin with. Dont want to spend $15 for like 6 trade tabs? Then use acquisition or whatever the program is called and you can still participate, but it will require a bit of work on the players part.
PoE is pay for QoL, which is understandable seeing the game and its 1000's of hours of content are free. |
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i would argue that QoL in poe is so much that its p2w.
no premium stash? = no trade = waste time learning how to sell things on forum got currency tab? = save TONS of time by control clicking got map tab? = save BUTTLOAD of time where you dont need to organize your maps 151 atlas maps x 72 mapslots each is huge. div tabs are a huge qol, so are essence. the new kirac pass/oracle helmet saves players from having to mouse over cards after pulling em. QoL stops being QoL when the it allows players conveniences that a free player does not have. extra stash = not p2w extra character slot = not p2w [Removed by Support]
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" If you are gonna argue then you should know that I didn't get to your second line before I wonder, why exaggregate it? Especially because you type it in a matter as fact. Wast time ... I can argue against my self if I want with that as reason no matter what I think of something. To have money to buy a decent computer, live with power and have internet, then you need to get money first. Then you have to work in normal case and is it waste of time? Or is it maybe p2w because of the one that have the money and don't need to work can play it a lot more? Some people think its waste of time just to find a name to thier character. So because of that, this argument is not valid. And you can trade but not in the same way. And if someone think thats the most important, feel free to buy. I feel its more important to have a jumping frog and and a flying seagul at my journey, its easier for me to play, equal p2w? It saves time with currency tab. It also save time to spend hours to get a good player, then know everything. Back to square one, It cost. Time plus work is in fact the same as money. Time again, nothing new, no need to seperate them. Then you use QoL wich all is more or less. That helmet cant I even comment though I know nothing about it. And what are your conclusion at last, when you get to the things I pointed at, that are p2w for you. How du you win? You are just talking about that you save time, dont need to click as much ... I think its hard to take it serious. The only thing I would put some time to think about it was if you couldnt trade at all. But still I am not sure what I even lean at in that question. But it isn't so, and no need to worry. |
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" you didnt get to my second line? if you didnt bother reading the entire thing do i need to respond to you or are you gonna avoid reading my response? TIME is advantage. EFFORT is advantage. i once used to be an adamant FREE PLAYER. no company will see a cent from me. and thus i had to make do with the original 4 tabs. how did i organize my "currency" tab? i had to meticulously put 1 unit of currency for multiple slots to ensure that the allocated slots were dedicated to ONLY the currency that i wanted there. this is a LOT to setup. and a lot to do every single league. having a currency tab takes out all this hassle. especially since we have affinities. your comparison about better pc better internet etc. let me put it this way. if i had a decent pc and you had a godlike pc, but our loadtimes and internet speed are the same. is there any p2w factor there? no, we're on equal ground. but what if I had the luxury of buying all the stashes and you chose not to? if we were to start a new league at the same time, over a week, if we had the same playtime, experience/build/luck, who do you think will have an advantage? i dont need to organize 1001 things. i control click and its done. i dont need to count stacks, i have them neatly counted. i dont need to organize map tabs and etc. POE's tabs used to be pure QoL. now it has so much convenience you'll fall behind. one may argue, fall behind WHAT? its a f2p PVE game! speed is your friend. if you progress the game faster you earn faster. when you earn faster you will open up different venues that f2p's will not have access to. for example easy trade. i sold a buttload of chaos thanks to my currency tab. EASILY and with minimal effort. minimal effort is a huge thing. spamming trade channel is no fun. for the helmet, let me tell you what it does. you pull a card from a stacked deck, it will reveal the pulled card clearly for you to see. then you can place the card in you inventory. without it, you need to pull the card, place it in you inventory THEN mouse over the card to see what you pulled. it saves "an action". over 1000 cards, thats over 1000 actions. it adds up. on top of that, from my own personal experience, when i m doing this tedious pulling job. i tend to "forget" what i just pulled and i mouse over the wrong card or i doubt that i moused over the wrong card. so i end up having to mouseover a bunch of div cards that i've already opened, just to make sure i see what i pulled. this happens A LOT. it saves a lot of time and frustration. if you ever come across a situation where you want to identify is something P2W or not. its simple. if 2 players that have everything EQUAL, but the one not paying has a disadvantage. then the game has p2w elements. simple as that. its just that in poe we loved GGG so much we tend to defend it or turn a blind eye. as someone who doesnt mind buying paid stashes, the currency stash and the affinities are the best thing to happen to POE. but i m not gonna pretend that its not p2w. its p2w but "acceptable" p2w. [Removed by Support]
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" Maybe you misunderstood, or did I. I was talking about if we should have some logic thinking and try to get as close to the truth as possible, then he shouldn't change that direction. Maybe it was by purpose to show - then I missed that. We are totally on the same side (and the ones that are not are trolling in fact or don't know much) when it comes to the topic/subject "most p2w I've ever played". If this is the only game he played ... most need something to compare about so ... A lot of things affect me as a player. You have to correct if I am wrong now. Let us pretend - If no one would trade (as you said the most do), I mean that can't change anything about p2w. And I could have missed something (as I havn't thought so much about it), but what other people do can't change your situation about advantage or not? And as I had said to other. Who do you get that advantage against? If it makes your experience better and time saving. Could we call private leagues for the biggest reason why say this game in fact is p2w? Because if I want to play in that way with the choices I can make (as tabs - though it does not change the game so much) to get a better experience ... Even if all choices makes the game harder. I don't see this game as p2w at all. And I do critizise thing when needed. And I hate all games that are even close to p2w. That makes it so strange when other think it is. But if I read all about what people think of nerfing, balancing and so in a game like this that works in a total different way. Then I think people just want to whine about everything no matter what it is. To high prices in mtx, mobs to hard, bad league ... And I talk only about the one that don't argue why it is and what would be better and how it affect everything. And I am not counting you in this group. Even if I disagree with the arguments and conclusion, that last step is in fact just how we sum it all! A bit irony: Can I say it is p2w because PoE for me is QoL in that fact I love to think, find new solutions, solve problems and spending time to see what solution I can came up with dependable of what loot I find? Take care! |
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So here's the thing:
Pay 2 Win. Lots of folks in this thread seem to forget that there are actual words involved in this statement. You pay money in order to win the game, AKA money directly influences your power. QoL in the form of stash tabs may "indirectly" make it so you're more likely to make money, and therefore more likely to gain power...it is so far indirect that it can't possibly be considered P2W. After all, a total novice with no idea what anything is worth can buy all the stash tabs they want...and it wouldn't help them at all. QoL in and of itself does NOT automatically lead to power. P2W, in its truest form and literal definition, means that the second you spend money you have an immediate power edge over a non-payer. Gacha games, immediate access to high level items, immediate time skips, etc. are all forms of P2W. But QoL? Not a chance. Furthermore, P2W is almost ALWAYS infinite, unless there is a 100% completion within the game. The more you spend, the better you are. period. Whales can out-power anyone else simply by spending more money. That will NEVER happen in PoE. The difference between someone having 100 stash tabs and a million stash tabs is meaningless. I will say that if you take two players of equal trade experience, and give one premium tabs and the other none, then yes there is some indirect P2W there. It's ignorant to even suggest there isn't that little bit of "edge" otherwise, why sell them? But to say that PoE is the MOST P2W GAME EVER is just...wrong. There isn't an argument to be had. From day 1 to 1000 I can't buy my way into red maps. From day 1 to 1000 I can't buy power. Even the things you can buy aren't even immediate power boosts. One could even make the argument that, if you spend the same amount on stash tabs that you would on a brand new, completely non-p2w game, you would be set for life in PoE. It's less p2w, and more just a novel system of adding a normal game cost to the game. This is not true of ANY OTHER p2w game I have ever played. You can spend hundreds, THOUSANDS of dollars and still be milked for money to remain competitive. @OP: you say in your first line: "Before anyone says I haven't played any p2w games". I mean....based on what you say in all your responses and your initial posts you really haven't. Or otherwise, you never were on the p2w side of things. You remain totally ignorant of what TRUE p2w is. Games that take a non-p2w player 10 years to accomplish what a p2w player can do in a week/month is pretty AVERAGE when it comes to p2w. That is most certainly not PoE stash tabs... Последняя редакция: jsuslak313#7615. Время: 28 авг. 2023 г., 05:44:26
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Stash tabs in regard to trade are not QOL, they are mandatory. You can't sell stuff without them which cripples you massively in a game that's designed around doing just that to have any sort of gear progression.
You could call it pay to play instead of pay to win really because you can't really play this game without a minimum amount of tabs. You get a highly inconvinenient demo version that lacks core game mechanics for free but that's about it. |
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"That was absolutely not what I wrote. I said I did not get longer then to your second line before I found "this". I think you exaggregate without need. Then in that case I take a step back and wonder I it's serious. Trust me I read all, and I _answer at every question_ if there are any. I wouldnt bother writing if I havn't read it. Wouldn't it be pointless? So either you didn't read what was written or you totally misunderstood. I don't know, maybe you wanted it to be in that way? As I said time and effort are equal money then you shuold take all that in count. Is it the one that works or not paying most (time, effort)? Thats why it is not an arguement that is valid here. And I don't like to just repeat, because it does not get any of us anywhere stuck in a loop whole. Did you read, because I already answered it once and my first phrase was about the same thing - did _you_ read? When you were unemployed - then you put all that time and effort to "win", so that is p2w - you got an advantage over other, that couldnt put that time to play. With that argument (I use your argument as I described last post) I will say that everything is p2w. But that is not a common opinion (definition) about how we define what p2w is. I did the same before i got a currency tab. From left and started as high I could with alphabetic order. Easiest for me to find without to use "search". And I had up to eight boxes maybe as most (some double lined). It's Quality of Life as if I put some in mtx for another mouse pointer (not called that but ...). Far from even close to p2w. I still play mini tetris every day, both in inventory and the stash tabs. If I could pay for a smart auto sort does't make it more p2w. If all crashes disappeared if I bought "something magic" - yes, that should be p2w. But it is not unplayable now - but for some (as they wrote). I would not even have a problem is you had to pay to play league, you could play core game and it is a bit what it is about (but it is a good choice to have the leaggue free - for both parts). League is some sort of private lague that differ from core game. I was not talking about to people were both had a pc, power and internet. I was talking that one could work and play the game because of that pc, power and internet. The other can't then the first one "won" and it makes the game p2w? I exaggregate too but in an absurd way to let you see were we will end if making own definitions of the "p2w". In you example - why do you not count play time? In reality a new player today has a big disadvantage or vice versa if prefered that the ones played the game for ten years has a big advantage. This is what it is. Then you put everything equal that non of us are a better gamer. Thats so unfair in a discussion. Then I can argue as put all the same as you but say instead we are both so poor that we can't even put five dollar into the game. Then it is not p2w? It is something "how should I answer to that - it's impossible". My answer is, what if I prefer to do other things at new league start? It became to one point, "what do you priority". Not spending time in that you think is QoL then you buy those tabs ... If you priority to play the game instead of playing tennis, go to the cinema ... I priority looking at that skill tree and other priority to read guides and follow them. That will also change the outcome in same way as "p2w". Money is just time and effort (work) if you scale it down long enough. When talking about "p2w" today, the most define it as paying money to get advantage (often so it is notable) over the one that is not putting money into "the advantage". But the one putting the time to get those money at a work, or the one putting the time to get best in the game is in fact the same. If you can buy the advantage with money instead of time it is "p2w". It is not even close. You wouldnt even notice it even if you bought everything that is possible over the one put time into the game instead. The last is not the defintion of "p2w". I have read the last also. I will finish by saying a few words. "if 2 players that have everything EQUAL, but the one not paying has a disadvantage. then the game has p2w elements." That quote is so wrong. You say "everything except" and then you put in something that fits your arguement. Why? Why should we play the same amount of time, same build, same loot and everything. I just say (and repeat) let us be equal to not have a single dime to put into the game. Person A put 10 hours per day into the game and person B puts 1 hour into the game. Who will have an advantage, and thats "p2w" because if he had worked he would earn maybe 150 dollar a day? That is what he pay to win. Indirectly, but it is the same. And with that conclusion all games are "p2w". Thats why you can't argue in that way, it is not valid. The only way a game can't be "p2w" then, is to asure all players can play the same amount of hours and also progress equal as a better player and so on ... You may think it is a ridicolous way to argue, but I used your "way to define" and your arguements! EDIT: Forgot this! I agree that GGG put a lot of things into the game that takes space if you save it all. And I think they want to find a balance so it is not "forced" to buy stash tabs but it will be QoL. They create a small problem and you can pay to get rid of that small (in fact tiny) problem. I dont need to save all cards. I dont need all essence and so on. And I don't defend something because who it is (or has been). You chose to play it exactly in the way you want. Do delve if you like, skip it if you don't. If you think the best items are there then it is bad luck if you don't like it. Add: I play Football Manager and the ones buying in game editor (so you can change almost everything while playing) and then win every game. That editor is not "p2w". I don't use it, and the one who does not affect anything for me. (I know we call a cell phone app to be "p2w" even if you don't get affected of others choice, but it is "pay to get futher into the crappy shit so you dont spend time because it is so crappy you ddon't want to spend that time in this crap.) Последняя редакция: ATIX89#4394. Время: 28 авг. 2023 г., 06:52:24
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Companies that create an issue and sells you the solution are no different than the usual gacha/p2w/p2skip games.
This community has an incredible difficult time to accept this reality. Poe creates an issue and sells you the solution. Mules arent a solution. Just like "picking less" isnt on a genre based entirely on loot. As long they keep creating currencies and league tabs it will not change no matter how much you type or cope saying that it isnt. "Parade your victories, hide your defeats. Mortals are so insecure."
Once you break the cycle of fear no angels or demons can whisper you their sweet nothing words. poe0.2/10. Nuff said. |
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