poe is still the most p2w game ive ever played

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roundishcap написал:

As someone with only the 4 base tabs. I can't use the trade website to list items.

I am tft banned, thank God.

This means my best way of converting orbs is bulk selling which works.

This is a very real part of p2w in por. But at least I dying have to worry about trade spam.

I thought of this earlier and couldnt get to a conclusion to 100 percent. I hardly lean that it is not p2w. The question I consider most valueble is; "Are you allowed to trade with other players in the game - is it possible without buying anything from the mtx"?

And we are not talking strange and wierd situations as banned account and suddenly bugs because mtx would give the same result.

And you are allowed to both chat in trade, write at this forum and everything around. But you are able to trade, as partying.

I also thought of the step, would it be p2w if you couldnt trade for all in the game without buying a specific item from mtx. I would not say directly that then it is p2w. But I am not sure I would say it is not p2w either. This would have been a more diffucult situation - but luckely we arn't there!

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Vennto написал:

I honestly dont get all the fuss about this thread. The whole P2w-discussion is so nonsense, as all the evidence is there. So lets stop taking everybodys own opinion and focus on real definitions.

While there are several different wordings, most definitions boil down to: "
Pay To Win is defined as games in which you get an advantage in the game if you spend real money on items, weapons or features and are thus clearly superior to other players".

By that definition PoE clearly is P2W, because the advantages of stash tabs vs. no stash tabs is huge.

What I personally find most amusing though, is that this metric does next to nothing as a standalone variable. In PoE, stash tabs might be necessary at some point, but the biggest difference for me is that they are not playerpower, they are enablers. This means, that no matter how much money you put into PoE, without the experience and knowledge they are worth nothing. I cannot speak to games I havent played, so I dont know about Genshin or Lost Ark or whatever. But comparing it to autobattlers, there is a huge difference. Once the skill requirement goes down by enough and you are able to buy direct power, then it is a game I boycott. And you cant do that in PoE, not at all.

So when it comes to P2W, I completely disagree with OP, in that sense that while I acknowledge that PoE is P2W, it is by no means the worst case ever.

What happened man?
You start the comment with clear logic and want to define everything and not involve emotions and personal opinions. Great!

Are you trolling the rest? Then it was nice, good job I must say, but if you are not. What happened? You have the biggest yacht there is and after two phrases you get to a conclusion that is exact opposite of what you told you should focus at before. And I dont even put your conclusion into whats happened.

Then you found your yacht again and put in your opinions when boycott and so and I agree with you as I have a similar opinion.

But the end - you are "correct" vs OP it is not the _most_ (not worst) p2w out in this world (but also an opinion). But what if it isn't even a p2w. It was not the subject directly but indirectly. If it is not p2w the thread's subject can't be discussed at all.

And I can't understand where people find the advantage, because there is no one you compete against and it is proved people can get as far without mtx as with the ones buying stas tabs. So in every point there is no p2w at all.

But I give you credit for arguing why even if I don't get to the same conclusion (but the definition was "correct" I think, havn't thought of all other variants though).

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CAPSLOCK_ON написал:

[--- and a few quotes]

the ones who don't think its terrible never advanced much in maps

Even if it should be ... But you can't tell how other people feel, think or anything. If you do, you will automatically have 100% correct conclusions no matter what you write.

You talk for your character and account and how you feel. If people telling you they have a non terrible experience doing the same thing as you - then you need to believe them no matter what. You can't argue against thier feelings. It's impossible.

Would you think it would be fair if I wrote this: "That is not how you feel, it's because you are a bad gamer, if you were good enough to play you would understand. Try to argue against that. Good luck!

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CAPSLOCK_ON написал:

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de99ial написал:

PoE is Pay for Convenience not to win.

i used to play without stash tabs and i can say with certainty that they are p2w you can call them convenience but all that convenience becomes p2w if the experience without them is so terrible

I have some premium tabs. Pls explain to me how and what exackly i win?

Holy crap this thread lol. It's a pve game. You're not winning or losing anything by buying or not buying stash tabs. And hundreds of dollars? On stash tabs!? I spent maybe 80 bucks and have all the tabs I'll ever need and then some. Stop hoarding junk that will just go to standard every league and you won't need so many tabs. Poe being p2w is such a laughable statement. Go enjoy D4 for $70 off the rip plus w/e else they add over the next few years lmao

This argument of P2W in PoE is maybe the most ludicrous and ridiculous P2W arguments I have ever seen. Is this a troll? First of all let's dispense with the notion of "Free". Nothing is really free. Things cost money. How games get there is another story.

In some ways I think Genshin and PoE have something in common. They both provide a VERY generous amount of their games for free that you can absolutely enjoy without paying a dime. However, if you play either game beyond a casual level they diverge sharply in how they expect you to pay for a more complete game.

In Genshin you are paying for more character choice/power which is the MAIN point of the entire game. Adding characters is arguably the MOST fun/intriguing part of the game so the allure for more characters is very high. If you want to engage in this you have to engage in the gacha system which is one of the most predatory forms of P2W. Imagine if PoE uniques were gated behind a gacha system? Yikes. On top of that the game uses complete predatory, underhanded BULLSHIT when it comes to artifacts. Weighting the bad (read: unwanted) stats against you so you get them more often turns the artifact grind into a complete nightmare (main reason I quit Genshin even though I loved the world exploration and game play). The other bullshit is the time gating with resin that forces you into a daily quest routine from hell that saps every ounce of fun out of the game unless you continue to pay money to skip it.

In PoE on the other hand all you need is a small purchase for stash tabs and THAT IS IT. You could easily spend 40 or 50 bucks and have a perfectly usable amount of stash tab convenience (Far far more than what D4 gives you for 70 or 90 dollars). Once purchased you can then enjoy the game in perpetuity with your single purchase (even including PoE2 which is unheard of in gaming or F2P). No other purchases are required unless you really want cosmetics or added convenience or just want to support the game. Please name me one other F2P game that is even remotely close to as fair as PoE. I'll wait...

*edit* Just want to add for context that I personally HATE all F2P games/systems. I think they are a toxic malignant cancer on the gaming industry that is doing real damage to game development. PoE is the ONLY F2P game I have ever fully supported because it's the only one I have ever seen that I think is above board, transparent and FAIR.

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EQBallzz написал:

In Genshin you are paying for more character choice/power which is the MAIN point of the entire game. Adding characters is arguably the MOST fun/intriguing part of the game so the allure for more characters is very high. If you want to engage in this you have to engage in the gacha system which is one of the most predatory forms of P2W. Imagine if PoE uniques were gated behind a gacha system? Yikes. On top of that the game uses complete predatory, underhanded BULLSHIT when it comes to artifacts. Weighting the bad (read: unwanted) stats against you so you get them more often turns the artifact grind into a complete nightmare (main reason I quit Genshin even though I loved the world exploration and game play). The other bullshit is the time gating with resin that forces you into a daily quest routine from hell that saps every ounce of fun out of the game unless you continue to pay money to skip it.

mate you do realize you cant buy artifact rolls right? the irony of that rant is that poe's core itemization is identical to what the artifact system is in genshin: you just pull the slot machine and hope for the best

um secondly, your hatred of dailies is your own issue, it has nothing to do with this topic. not to mention dailies isnt even your main source of wish currency anyway. 80+% of your wish currency comes from exploration, quests, and events. in fact if you farmed dailies every day for a full month you barely farmed up a single 10 pull. its not much at all. so if you hated it that much, dont do them?

if you were playing genshin as a "gotta catchem all" mentality, thats possible even as f2p but nobody actually does this so players end up with excess wishes to fine tune their waifus

also not sure how you came to the conclusion that poe is generous to f2p because not having stash tabs becomes a blatantly obvious disadvantage not even 5 hours into every league.

and last but not least, you can say nothing is really free all you want, ive played several dozens of games f2p and maxed out my characters in almost all of them so.. they really were free for me. when most good games advertize their f2p model, it almost always allows f2p players to enjoy the game as an actual f2p. poe does not do that.

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EQBallzz написал:

[...] First of all let's dispense with the notion of "Free". Nothing is really free. Things cost money.[...]

*edit* Just want to add for context that I personally HATE all F2P games/systems. I think they are a toxic malignant cancer on the gaming industry that is doing real damage to game development. PoE is the ONLY F2P game I have ever fully supported because it's the only one I have ever seen that I think is above board, transparent and FAIR.

First, everything is in fact free, except that it is just work and time behind everything. The money is just a system we created so in that terms you are right "how we live today".

Yes, the last part is true! But there are a lot more, pre purchase of not finished game, eaarly access at full price as beta tester. And the only ones to blame is the users and customers. We support it - and then it will grow and later become standard. One side is greedy and the other is *****. Even if I am not (what I think) one of these above Im surley is in other ares where I dont think about it, because I don't love it. Games I love though!

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yamface написал:

also not sure how you came to the conclusion that poe is generous to f2p because not having stash tabs becomes a blatantly obvious disadvantage not even 5 hours into every league.

"blatant obvious disadvantage" for... what exactly?

If you are paranoid about having your name in the message "character X was the first to reach Y", then, yeah, maybe thats true, but outside that, you are at a disadvantage on what exactly?

Poe is not a competition, outside racing you dont get prizes for completing challenges or beating bosses super fast(and people on races dont use extra stash tabs, so even there, your point dont work). And being able to trade is only about reaching certain power points faster, but whats the prize on reaching endgame faster that would make poe a "p2w"?

Even if we take trading as an integral part of the game, the amount of money you need to fork to have a decent stash is hardly big. Just be smart and ask what are the important tabs and people will give the same awnswers: currency tab, map tab, one premium quad and maaaybe the fragment tab. All that dont total 30 bucks and if we consider this as the price tag of poe, it would put it on par with games like sins of a solar empire or rimworld with one expansion. Poe made the bold decision of making cosmetic pricy, but most stash tabs costs less than a pair of bus tickets

You REALLY have no experience watsoever with the average p2w game if you think poe in anywhere on the same level, even on light p2w games like magic arena or yugioh master duel, the amount of stuff you can get for the price of the 200 points pack on poe is almost comically small, with that much cash, you dont even get enough gems to make a single garanteed SR pull on master duel or enough to get a single mythic charge on magic arena, and those are games on the GENEROUS end of the scale! What you can get with 15 bucks on the average mobile gacha is close to literal nothing

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feike написал:

Poe is not a competition, outside racing you dont get prizes for completing challenges or beating bosses super fast(and people on races dont use extra stash tabs, so even there, your point dont work). And being able to trade is only about reaching certain power points faster, but whats the prize on reaching endgame faster that would make poe a "p2w"?

please dont speak for someone else. i dont pay attention to every single race ongoing but if ben and nick are still the 2 main winners of most of these races then unfortunately your claim that ppl dont use them in races is wrong. oh and mind you aside from the trading feature of premium stash tabs, the second valuable part of buying more is for the extra storage space itself, so it speaks volumes when said gauntlets restrict the more desired feature of paid stash tabs yet players still use them just for the secondary feature. as for the question at the end of that quote feel free to check out the earlier posts that address exactly that.