poe is still the most p2w game ive ever played

"

CAKE написал:

This is weakest argument in the whole thread i will present it by using that logic in other games,

And you started to compare direct power to inventory space. Case closed.

Dude even selling direct power is not p2w in itself. Its all about how relevant it is. In gw2 you can buy instant max lvl things and yet its not p2w because it doesnt matter in the long run.

Again going by your standards every single game is p2w. For me p2w is when the more money you put in the stronger you get. If the cap is reasonable (like 60$) and by that point its irrelevant how much more you put in i do not consider it p2w, its just the price of the game.

I honestly dont get all the fuss about this thread. The whole P2w-discussion is so nonsense, as all the evidence is there. So lets stop taking everybodys own opinion and focus on real definitions.

While there are several different wordings, most definitions boil down to: "
Pay To Win is defined as games in which you get an advantage in the game if you spend real money on items, weapons or features and are thus clearly superior to other players".

By that definition PoE clearly is P2W, because the advantages of stash tabs vs. no stash tabs is huge.

What I personally find most amusing though, is that this metric does next to nothing as a standalone variable. In PoE, stash tabs might be necessary at some point, but the biggest difference for me is that they are not playerpower, they are enablers. This means, that no matter how much money you put into PoE, without the experience and knowledge they are worth nothing. I cannot speak to games I havent played, so I dont know about Genshin or Lost Ark or whatever. But comparing it to autobattlers, there is a huge difference. Once the skill requirement goes down by enough and you are able to buy direct power, then it is a game I boycott. And you cant do that in PoE, not at all.

So when it comes to P2W, I completely disagree with OP, in that sense that while I acknowledge that PoE is P2W, it is by no means the worst case ever.

"

kuciol написал:

"

CAKE написал:

This is weakest argument in the whole thread i will present it by using that logic in other games,

And you started to compare direct power to inventory space. Case closed.

Dude even selling direct power is not p2w in itself. Its all about how relevant it is. In gw2 you can buy instant max lvl things and yet its not p2w because it doesnt matter in the long run.

Again going by your standards every single game is p2w. For me p2w is when the more money you put in the stronger you get. If the cap is reasonable (like 60$) and by that point its irrelevant how much more you put in i do not consider it p2w, its just the price of the game.

I've compared advantage to advantage.
If space is not advantage if i remove all your inventory and chest space are you going to have easier time playing? If removal of it is disadvantage guess what adding it would be... advantage.

case closed.

And no, i'm not calling all games p2w it is such extreme strawman that i do not even know where you got the idea so it is hard to react to. Like how is hotline miami 2 p2w according to my argument presented? It has no skins, no mtx, yes the game can cost money if you do not get it free from epic games free week but i never said that games which cost money to play are p2w. Sure, you are not likely to win game that you never play, but if you played it there would be no advantage over other people that play it.

"

Vennto написал:

So when it comes to P2W, I completely disagree with OP, in that sense that while I acknowledge that PoE is P2W, it is by no means the worst case ever.

Agree, i'm not blind to not see the p2w here BUT it affordable p2w, in great game, and normal game would cost u 120dollars today (diablo 4) for 120bucks u can have life-time ammount of stash tabs for league play (for standard u'd need thousands ofcourse but 0 people play standard hehe)

"

CAKE написал:

I've compared advantage to advantage.
If space is not advantage if i remove all your inventory and chest space are you going to have easier time playing? If removal of it is disadvantage guess what adding it would be... advantage.

case closed.

And no, i'm not calling all games p2w it is such extreme strawman that i do not even know where you got the idea so it is hard to react to. Like how is hotline miami 2 p2w according to my argument presented? It has no skins, no mtx, yes the game can cost money if you do not get it free from epic games free week but i never said that games which cost money to play are p2w. Sure, you are not likely to win game that you never play, but if you played it there would be no advantage over other people that play it.

You compared major advantage that can be used only by the rich, to a minor one that most can afford.

You didnt directly said that games that you must buy are p2w, i said because they fit in your definition. You have to pay for them afterall.

"

Exsmigol написал:

What OP is saying is true and there is no reason to deny that.

The game is free to try out and have some fun(you could see that as a fre trial). If you want to engage with trading or hoard tons of currency stash tabs are practically mandatory.

People like to fight over the definition of p2w, but its clear that you cant even spam maps without a couple stash tabs to not make your experience miserable.

All that being said, its fine that poe do that. Common lets be honest here, if you have like 300 hours of gameplay on a game you should support the developers if you can. Its not like you insta win at poe by just buying stashs anyway. It is fair.

An opinion can't be wrong as we all use information, experience and everything so get to that conclusion. If there should be any about PoE be a P2W or not, the truth must be it isnt. If people then think they need something its a free choice. Its QoL (an old man typed those for the first time I think) and nothing more. Thats my opinion, and also closest the true - as loing no one can prove we need anything more then wat we get when start playing. Easier (not that game is more easy) is not p2w. I can then say the same about my blue frog with a little golden crown on the head - I play better when he is with me at my journeys. Its still not p2w.

Is it even possible to win in this game, and then how? When have you won?

"

CAPSLOCK_ON написал:

"

de99ial написал:

PoE is Pay for Convenience not to win.

i used to play without stash tabs and i can say with certainty that they are p2w you can call them convenience but all that convenience becomes p2w if the experience without them is so terrible

How do you get to that conclusion? Normally there is a red line that follow some sorts of logic when get to the final conclusion. Sound strange to just cut that line and then write something you think that dont hold when looking at the red line.

What you think is terrible is just your experience. The ones that don't think its terrible makes your statement false.

It would be as strange as I say Baldurs Gate III is a p2w (I really hope there is nothing, because I read a bit of it) because I need to pay for the game.

And win? To win, there must be someone to lose. And this senbtance is logic compared to "where there is a silverkey, there must be a silverdoor" but is must not! Maybe in this game but ...

"

ATIX89 написал:

"

CAPSLOCK_ON написал:

"

de99ial написал:

PoE is Pay for Convenience not to win.

i used to play without stash tabs and i can say with certainty that they are p2w you can call them convenience but all that convenience becomes p2w if the experience without them is so terrible

How do you get to that conclusion? Normally there is a red line that follow some sorts of logic when get to the final conclusion. Sound strange to just cut that line and then write something you think that dont hold when looking at the red line.

What you think is terrible is just your experience. The ones that don't think its terrible makes your statement false.

It would be as strange as I say Baldurs Gate III is a p2w (I really hope there is nothing, because I read a bit of it) because I need to pay for the game.

And win? To win, there must be someone to lose. And this senbtance is logic compared to "where there is a silverkey, there must be a silverdoor" but is must not! Maybe in this game but ...

the ones who don't think its terrible never advanced much in maps

"

CAPSLOCK_ON написал:

"

CAKE написал:

f

bro i stopped reading when you started going on about p2w guns in other games when you buy those p2w guns you immediately become stronger but if you have many stash tabs you still gotta work for that currency the stash tabs just makes it easier which can be considered p2w which i do

But with that logic - do you agree when I say, that "MrX" bought 20 stash tabs of difference kind, but used 10 of them just to drop loot in. Then when start sorting, it takes a long time and it makes him play worse but most of it, losing time. Suddenly when its p2w for you its p2l for him and you both did exactly the same thing (lets pretend). (I know normal stash tabs are not like a currence tab but its quite the same if you understand what I mean.)

But please tell me what is "win". There must be a point (or line) when you reach this position - but I dont know where it is.

Whatever you do - I promise It does not affect me at all. So lets say single player games can be p2w to reach something, but what is this something? Level? Specific boss killing? Depth in delev? Or is it time vs something else, then what time and what to compare with?

Is there something in mtx that are not p2w in how you see it? Then Ill try to use some argument why they could be p2w.

I am saying this game is as far you can get from p2w. It is single player and there is no one that lose when you "win" (except that ladder, but trust me, I havnt even looked at that). You character is not being stronger, faster, or anything that helps with the in game mechanic.

Is all games p2w? The ones that eat health, train a lot and keep thier focus clear will for most be a better player. The games give them an advantage so it's p2w - even if it is not money to company?

The line could only be where you compete against other and you get in game mechanical advantage - then it is p2w, no matter who will win.

"

CAKE написал:

Скрытый текст

"

kuciol написал:

"

CAKE написал:

This is weakest argument in the whole thread i will present it by using that logic in other games,

And you started to compare direct power to inventory space. Case closed.

Dude even selling direct power is not p2w in itself. Its all about how relevant it is. In gw2 you can buy instant max lvl things and yet its not p2w because it doesnt matter in the long run.

Again going by your standards every single game is p2w. For me p2w is when the more money you put in the stronger you get. If the cap is reasonable (like 60$) and by that point its irrelevant how much more you put in i do not consider it p2w, its just the price of the game.

I've compared advantage to advantage.
If space is not advantage if i remove all your inventory and chest space are you going to have easier time playing? If removal of it is disadvantage guess what adding it would be... advantage.

case closed.

And no, i'm not calling all games p2w it is such extreme strawman that i do not even know where you got the idea so it is hard to react to. Like how is hotline miami 2 p2w according to my argument presented? It has no skins, no mtx, yes the game can cost money if you do not get it free from epic games free week but i never said that games which cost money to play are p2w. Sure, you are not likely to win game that you never play, but if you played it there would be no advantage over other people that play it.

It is a false statement. Just because somthing goes in a specific direction (and I don't talk specific this game now) when adding or something, the opposite is not valid. By your logic when closing cases like this, then if you have ten billions of stash tabs you would have an advantage over the one using 20 stash tabs.

I really hope you see why you cant argue like that. If I don't like to sleep at nights - it doesn't become that I like to sleep at days. It is almost the same at how you get your conclusion!