Why are only melee punished by weapon specific skill gems?

"

LostForm написал:

"

wrathmar написал:

Now you are talking about magic users and trying to compare them to weapon users. Spell gems have no limitation on weapon types.

I have yet to find a two handed axe with spell damage, faster casting, or faster projectiles, or spell crit hit.

Nevertheless, if you really wanted, you could run around with a two handed axe and spit out fireballs. Whether or not it's a good idea is a wholly separate matter.

"

I do believe spell casters pretty much are limited to wands, daggers, staves.

I do believe spell casters pretty much are not limited at all in their weapon selection, and could even run around unarmed, still spitting out fireballs.

"

Then a spell caster has to deal with all the weapons for spell casting are hybridized and can roll attack mods or spell caster mods.

Just as dagger, scepter and staff melee wielders have to deal with all the weapons for spell casting. Just as melee wielders ALSO have to deal with weapons that are attributed for elemental weapon damage vs. physical weapon damage. And all of this, ON TOP of the fact that they are restricted in which skills they can even bloody use in the first place.

"

Every one has to make decisions. It is why they exist, so people have to choose something.

Decisions are great. Forcing one category of players to make more decisions, more sacrifices, than another category is not so great. Particularly when doing so serves no useful purpose whatsoever. Doubly so when the category thusly impeded happens to be the one category that's already getting it in the ear.

"

Even bows have differences between a bow good for RoA, and a bow good for lightning arrow. Yes they can use both skills, but the bows that are good for each skill are pretty different. From weapon type to desired mods, they are different. Then we look at a skill like explosive arrow, which has pretty different rules and mods that support it than other arrow attacks. Bow users have to make choices too.

No, bow users do not HAVE to make a choice. They can pick up ANY BOW THAT DROPS, pick up ANY BOW SKILL THAT DROPS, and fire that skill from that bow. Anywhere, any time, for any reason. Now, whether it's a good idea to use bow X on skill Y is a strategy decision, a tactical decision, a character build decision. But in no way, shape or form is the character prevented by game mechanics from giving his insane combination a try.

Whereas, no amount of careful consideration, thoughtful pondering, or comprehensive analysis will ever allow a sword wielder to use Glacial Hammer. Ever. There's no choice to be made; there isn't even a choice available. He simply CANNOT use the skill with the sword, under any circumstances.

The gem is a melee gem skill. It's used in melee range. The sword is a melee weapon. It's swung in melee range. Yet the two cannot be combined. This restriction, this artificial and arbitrary impediment, exists in NO FASHION WHATSOEVER for bow users, nor for magic users. Only melee. THAT is the imbalance being identified and illustrated in this thread, and no other.

"

If you try to say that bows specialized to use a skill is wildly different than melee having to use a particular weapon type, then just go grab a weapon with any old mods of the right weapon type, because then u could use the skill and would be just fine.

Bows specialized to use a skill is wildly different than melee having to use a particular weapon type. This is illustrated most clearly by the simple fact that one CAN grab any ol' bow and start shooting with any ol' bow skill that one's heart desires, but melee wielders need to first pass the utterly purposeless Gem Compatibility Test™.

Good luck arguing against that post.

"

Xaxyx написал:

Bows specialized to use a skill is wildly different than melee having to use a particular weapon type. This is illustrated most clearly by the simple fact that one CAN grab any ol' bow and start shooting with any ol' bow skill that one's heart desires, but melee wielders need to first pass the utterly purposeless Gem Compatibility Test™.

Ranged weapons have two weapon types (bow,wand) and melee has more types. You can’t claim that bow users can use all ranged attacks because they can’t use power siphon

It sounds like bows are in a good place with number of options. So the devs should work on adding more skills to the underrepresented types.

"

wrathmar написал:

Ranged weapons have two weapon types (bow,wand) and melee has more types. You can’t claim that bow users can use all ranged attacks because they can’t use power siphon

Fair enough. It's 8 vs. 2, rather than 8 vs. 1.

"

It sounds like bows are in a good place with number of options. So the devs should work on adding more skills to the underrepresented types.

Or... they could simply make more allowances on the existing melee skills. Would that really be so bad? Would anyone's game experience become sadfaced if someone could suddenly Glacial Axe?

I've read all the pages in this thread, and still doesn't see what the issue is.

We got two categories of weapons in this game: Melee and Ranged.
Melee consists of maces, axes, swords, daggers, claws, staves and unarmed
Ranged consists of bows and wands.

Some seems to argue that there isn't a ranged category at all. This makes no sense. Bows and wands are both used at RANGE, therefor they're ranged weapons. Just like sword and maces are used in melee, therefor they're melee weapons.

People then complain that they can't use every melee weapon with every melee gem. Why is this unfair? The exact same restrictions applies to ranged weapons. You can't use Rain of Arrows with your wand.

And finally people complain about the fact that any bow user can use any bow with any bow skill. Please, do tell how that is different from any sword user can use any sword with any sword skill.
Bows is NOT a category by itself, it's a part of RANGED category.

Finally, yes, spell casters can use any weapon with any of their spell casting skills - BECAUSE THEY DON'T USE THEIR WEAPON WITH THEIR SKILLS. Still, a spellcaster is limited in their choice - They have to use wand, scepter, dagger or staff or they might as well have an empty slot.
Are you, as a melee user, envy of this?
Then I suggest a perfect solution:
Allow ANY melee skill to be used with ANY melee weapon, but if, say, you're using groundslam with a sword, then you simply don't benefit from the stats on your weapon. There, you're now in the same situation as casters. Happy?

"

Xaxyx написал:

Nevertheless, if you really wanted, you could run around with a two handed axe and spit out fireballs. Whether or not it's a good idea is a wholly separate matter.

Like wise you can grab any ole' weapon of the right type and start using the skill you want. Anyone can do anything at the base level. You can literally go to the vendor, grab any weapon of the right type and start using the skill. If you are arguing that you cant find the base types you need you are wrong. I really do not understand your point here. You can literally grab any sword and do puncture, whether it is a good idea or not is a wholly seperate matter, but the exact same matter that spell casters have to deal with, or bow users, or anyone playing the game. You made choices, now you have to find gear to support your choices. period.

"

I do believe spell casters pretty much are not limited at all in their weapon selection, and could even run around unarmed, still spitting out fireballs.

just as you could go buy a white axe and go around cleaving. If you are saying you cant find an item to make your skill work at all, i suggest you try the vendor. But you are not saying that, you are saying that spell casters dont need gear, which is purely wrong.

"

Just as dagger, scepter and staff melee wielders have to deal with all the weapons for spell casting. Just as melee wielders ALSO have to deal with weapons that are attributed for elemental weapon damage vs. physical weapon damage. And all of this, ON TOP of the fact that they are restricted in which skills they can even bloody use in the first place.

Just as melee is limited to which weapons support their skills, so to are casters, and bow users and wand attackers limited to which gear support their skill choices. I agree here, everyone has a narrow selection from all weapon types that actually can support the skills they use.

"

Decisions are great. Forcing one category of players to make more decisions, more sacrifices, than another category is not so great. Particularly when doing so serves no useful purpose whatsoever. Doubly so when the category thusly impeded happens to be the one category that's already getting it in the ear.

Decisions are great, agreed. But you are saying you dont want to make choices right after. You are just biased here. everyone has choices period. If you want to use maces, choose to use skills that maces support. If you want to use ground slam with axes...well, it is not an option, and doesnt need to be one, because it does not meaningfully change anything except reducing choices available to a player.

"

No, bow users do not HAVE to make a choice. They can pick up ANY BOW THAT DROPS, pick up ANY BOW SKILL THAT DROPS, and fire that skill from that bow. Anywhere, any time, for any reason. Now, whether it's a good idea to use bow X on skill Y is a strategy decision, a tactical decision, a character build decision. But in no way, shape or form is the character prevented by game mechanics from giving his insane combination a try.

You keep saying things like this. Go pick up any mace that drops, any mace at all and use ground slam. It works. But it is a terrible idea, just like picking up any bow and shooting any bow skill with it is probably a terrible idea.

"

Whereas, no amount of careful consideration, thoughtful pondering, or comprehensive analysis will ever allow a sword wielder to use Glacial Hammer. Ever. There's no choice to be made; there isn't even a choice available. He simply CANNOT use the skill with the sword, under any circumstances.

Just like you cant shoot explosive arrow with a wand. Or lighting strike with a bow. You have to pick weapons that support your skill choice period.

"

The gem is a melee gem skill. It's used in melee range. The sword is a melee weapon. It's swung in melee range. Yet the two cannot be combined. This restriction, this artificial and arbitrary impediment, exists in NO FASHION WHATSOEVER for bow users, nor for magic users. Only melee. THAT is the imbalance being identified and illustrated in this thread, and no other.

just like not all projectile attacks can be used by a wand or bow. There are even some abiliteis that can be either projectile or melee and work with everything! There is not rhyme or reason why dual strike (an attack with two weapons) shouldnt work with wands other than the developers decided it was a melee only attack. It is not game breaking that some melee skills only work with certain melee weapons, it is simply a design decision, one that adds meaningful choices to the game.

"

Bows specialized to use a skill is wildly different than melee having to use a particular weapon type. This is illustrated most clearly by the simple fact that one CAN grab any ol' bow and start shooting with any ol' bow skill that one's heart desires, but melee wielders need to first pass the utterly purposeless Gem Compatibility Test™.

you have said this in every single line now. you can grab any ole' mace and starting ground slamming. This is not limited to bow users. It can be a white mace, any base type, it doesnt matter, you will be able to use ground slam.


Get over it guys, the choices are meaningful and add diversity. On all fronts.

I do agree with wrathmar though, a few new wand attacks would be good, a new dagger/claw attack would be good. Possibly a new skill for axes that doesnt work with swords.

"

Xaxyx написал:

"

wrathmar написал:

]It sounds like bows are in a good place with number of options. So the devs should work on adding more skills to the underrepresented types.

Or... they could simply make more allowances on the existing melee skills. Would that really be so bad? Would anyone's game experience become sadfaced if someone could suddenly Glacial Axe?

No one would be upset about using Glacial Strike on all weapon types. If they removed type restrictions on weapon types you would see bow users using power siphon and all melee users using cleave and glacial hammer.

In my opinion Cleave > Ground slam and Glacial Hammer > Heavy Strike/Double Strike. Right now the game is balanced around the restrictions. Let’s look at 1H axe and 1H mace. Right now the mace gets the superior single target Glacial attack but is stuck with the inferior AOE Ground slam; the opposite is true for axes.

"

wrathmar написал:

"

Xaxyx написал:

"

wrathmar написал:

]It sounds like bows are in a good place with number of options. So the devs should work on adding more skills to the underrepresented types.

Or... they could simply make more allowances on the existing melee skills. Would that really be so bad? Would anyone's game experience become sadfaced if someone could suddenly Glacial Axe?

No one would be upset about using Glacial Strike on all weapon types. If they removed type restrictions on weapon types you would see bow users using power siphon and all melee users using cleave and glacial with axes.

In my opinion Cleave > Ground slam and Glacial Hammer > Heavy Strike/Double Strike. Right now the game is balanced around the restrictions. Let’s look at 1H axe and 1H mace. Right now the mace gets the superior single target Glacial attack but is stuck with the inferior AOE Ground slam; the opposite is true for axes.

Just wrong.

Mace isn't stuck with anything. Mace gets 2 extra abilities and can still use everything the axe can. For example, a mace can still use glacial hammer and ground slam, as well as 2 the best aoe skills for melee which is lightning strike and cyclone. Oh and leap slam. so thats 3. :P

So basically if RNG granted you a good mace, you're ok. If RNG gave you an axe you're instantly restricted. That's the issue i'm trying so hard to explain that yet seems so impossible to grasp for some.

"

pengant написал:

Just wrong.

Mace isn't stuck with anything. Mace gets 2 extra abilities and can still use everything the axe can. For example, a mace can still use glacial hammer and ground slam, as well as 2 the best aoe skills for melee which is lightning strike and cyclone. Oh and leap slam. so thats 3. :P

So basically if RNG granted you a good mace, you're ok. If RNG gave you an axe you're instantly restricted. That's the issue i'm trying so hard to explain that yet seems so impossible to grasp for some.

Please stop acting so condescending. Maces are limited, they are not able to use cleave. If you are a high level axe user and the game drops a GG mace you are not going to switch because of the respec cost not the skill gem choice.

Then if axes are restricted they should add more axe skills or grant whirling blades to axes.

"

pengant написал:

So basically if RNG granted you a good mace, you're ok. If RNG gave you an axe you're instantly restricted. That's the issue i'm trying so hard to explain that yet seems so impossible to grasp for some.

but how does the game giving you a great axe in anyway help a bow user or spell caster, or wand user. It helps them (and restricts them) just as much as an axe dropping for a ground slam user. Or a mace dropping for a cleave user. In no way does the game dropping loot you cant use change anything about your character lol. If you cant use the loot, you cant use it, it doesnt change for anyone.


Awsome, an opal wand just dropped, and I am a spell caster. Ah shit, it has 100%+IPD 1-96 lightning damage, faster attacks, and +accuracy...looks like I am now restricted from casting stronger spells because it dropped. Wtf?!