Why I've given up hope of this game becoming great (but not quite on GGG)

The past few days, I've been playing a lot of this game called Divinity: Original Sin (DOS). Released about a week ago, it's a modern-graphics version of the old turn-based computer RPG combat, and thus is not in direct competition with ARPGs at all.

However, it has a certain... "unity of design," perhaps, is the best term for it... which really made me think about Path of Exile. See, deciding to go with turn-based combat isn't a very good system if you don't optimize for it, which is something DOS's creators clearly understand. Turn-based combat, at its heart, is about allowing for a large amount of strategic play, since players have theoretically unlimited time to ponder each move they make. DOS embraces this by making virtually every element of its environment alterable, to such an extent that you could almost call DOS a "battlefield manipulation" game, where the key to success often lies in creating clouds of smoke (which block vision) or electrifying a nearby stream to electrocute any who attempt to ford it. The game has thrown several difficult challenges at me so far, prompting numerous "game over" and reloads, but I've never felt gear-checked... instead, I've always felt I couldn't stack enough advantage through positional and environmental gameplay, that I didn't come up with the right moves.

It's truly a beautiful thing seeing how the devs beyond DOS have come up with mechanics such as complex status-effect systems and a strong emphasis on positioning, in order to synergize with the core mechanic of turn-based combat. Like I said before, unity of design.

PoE, of course, is not a turn-based combat system, but an action-oriented real-time system. In order to avoid gear checks in such a style of game, relying on high strategy wouldn't be a good idea, since players only have fractions of a second to make choices. Instead, the key mechanic would be "twitch" reflex challenges, such as Vaal Oversoul's slamming fist or High Templar Dominus' Touch of God. Although Path of Exile has such twitch challenges incorporated into the game, it's very clear this was as an afterthought; only a small handful of recently introduced monsters, such as Soulless Watchers and Undying Evangelists, promote the mechanic outside of boss fights, and prior to adding Oversoul in Closed Beta, the concept pretty much didn't exist in the game. As such, it's not part of the core vision and not fully embraced, even if GGG has been sympathetic to the idea now for a while.

A good ARPG, then, would be one which embraces the concept of twitch challenges — and most importantly, telegraphing those challenges to the player — as one of the most core gameplay mechanics. It should be something which permeates the entire game and becomes an easily understood system with less than an hour of playtime.

However, the most damning aspect of this is the continued performance problems with the game. Twitch reflex challenges, as a mechanic, are extremely dependent upon a lack of desynchronization and graphical frames-per-second issues in order to be relevant rather than punishing; simply put, in a game where players cannot count on a smooth gameplay experience, twitch challenges stop being mouse-based and start being gear-based, falling back into the gear-check trap.

People have been pointing this out to GGG for literally years. They might not understand why smooth gameplay is so important to them, but a surprising number of people have a subconscious grasp on the link between good gameplay, a lack of gearchecks, twitch challenges, and a lack of desync, which is why so many people have gotten upset on the issue over time. Many of these people have greatly exaggerated the severity of the problem itself, rather than emphasized the extreme importance in the big picture — since almost all of Path of Exile's "unity of design" is reliant upon reliable client performance, it is important that it be immaculate.

I am simply not picking up this vibe from GGG. They don't seem to understand how important desync and other performance issues are to the gameplay as a whole, and are not willing to make any sacrifices in order to improve it, despite it being something which is definitely worth making sacrifices for. Frames-per-second improvements have been delayed, and it seems reducing security risk against obscure and non-game-breaking hacks is more important to GGG than ensuring a desync-free play experience. As I said earlier, it's literally been years, and although I won't say there has been zero improvement, it's something which should have been a very high priority, and should have been fixed a long, long time ago.

I feel it's a shame, really. Path of Exile is a game founded on a unique combination of previously used ideas (Materia, Sphere Grid, Diablo clone) and original ones to make a very interesting design from a theoretical perspective, which makes it one of the funnest games to theorycraft. However, theorycrafting and playing are different things, and the developers have put far too much emphasis on the theorycrafting and not enough on the play itself. I can't help but sympathize; it's the type of mistake I'd be prone to make myself. This doesn't make it right. The continued emphasis on new theorycraft targets, rather than performance improvements, shows misplaced priorities.

Quick aside: Crafting and socketing, while cool concepts, also have flaws at the fundamental level. Not as important as desync, but still major and very tricky to fix. But I digress.

Given that the game has been in release for quite some time now, it's probably too late to make the kinds of drastic changes necessary with Path of Exile as we know it. However, I don't think it's too late to start work on a sequel to Path of Exile, one which uses a better engine with a plan, from the very beginning, to maximize client performance both graphically and in terms of desync. If GGG has some sense to them, I believe they'd realize this, that they can't coast on Path of Exile forever due to some inherent flaws with their original design, and that continuously releasing new games — to include sequels to old ones which patch up previous design errors — is what a game developer needs to do to remain continuously in business. At the very least, GGG's lack of announcements for any games other than PoE makes me worry about their long-term sustainability; they should have something else cooking by now.

TL;DR: GGG, stop counting on PoE to last forever and start working on a new game or two. It's okay if a PoE sequel is one of the new projects, but if so, make sure it has extra-smooth gameplay in terms of performance issues and very good telegraphing mechanics.

Not to completely side track your post, but how divinity? I've been tempted to buy, but haven't played turn based since the FF series. The battle system does intrigue me, I've watched videos, but otherwise I haven't heard much else.

Err there were a lot of great games in the 90s creating fluent or excellent turn based games.

I am sure GGG could create a good CCG/TCG because they like MTG and they would just have to listen to feedback to create formats with limiting certain cards of forbid them.
That would take less effort.

But creating another game with ARPG/MMORPG basis means POE support will stop and they will go full time on another game.

Even major studios, work that way.

So to summarize your topic, desync is PoE's largest flaw and the biggest thing holding it back. I actually agree with that but you're dressing this topic as if it's something else.

Twitch skills still matter a lot especially in higher map bosses/atziri dungeon and generally difficult maps(with minus max/double or even triple damage).

I think the game fully embraces the need for twitch skills but the sync code makes it so you have to work around it. I really consider every other complaint very minor compared to the sync issues.

Now that the leagues have ended I've started playing D3:RoS to kill time and also so I can cool down from a little PoE overload and let me tell you damn D3 is sooo much better than PoE in many ways. As you said in your post DOS made you aware of a kind of underlying unity that PoE lacks and D3 has made me realize this as well.

I hate to say it but PoE feels like a poorly stitched together B horror film compared to D3.

Ultimately the bottom line in your post I feel is correct. PoE has too many inherent flaws to be a great game and GGG has the capacity to do better and should do so by starting PoE 2. I'd go so far as to say it might not be worth releasing act 4 unless there are some more fundamental fixes to the game along with it.

We might also be seeing the realities of just how small a team GGG is and how inexperienced they are.

But it's not all negative imo. I really am super excited to see what they have for us in August.

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I hate to say it but PoE feels like a poorly stitched together B horror film compared to D3.

Only in the cinematic,optimization and netcode areas. D3 is extremely simplistic compared to many systems that exist in PoE.

If desync is the worst of poe's problems it is in pretty good shape imo.

Sometimes I get the feeling that I am playing a different game than other people. With the way some people talk, desync is constantly screwing with them and looming over them.... a constant threat.

On the last 4 month league I never had a single desync death and only had 1 or 2 bad desyncs that I recognized myself and fixed before dieing. In the past I have had the worst of desyncs that people report.... teleporting into a room you never entered and dieing helplessly. But imo most of those situations can be prevented by the user (and no, not just by constant oos, I almost never use oos).

I guess in my case it could be because I played d2 for so long. In case many of you forgot, d2 had desync problems too, typically for the same reasons. Pushing yourself too hard through groups of mobs and tight doorways, hugging ground objects or other terrain anomaly's needlessly. Learning to eliminate or mitigate these factors will make desync practically nonexistent and the last line of defense is developing a sixth sense to recognize desync before it is too late and you are dieing to it.

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Sometimes I get the feeling that I am playing a different game that other people. With the way some people talk, desync is constantly screwing with them and looming over them.... a constant threat.

I bet you're like me and many others who fully play around desync. I played hardcore/nemesis extensively and never had a high level desync death. That does not mean desync is not a huge issue.

We've gotten used to it. I personally have a /oos script whenever I think things are off. I play in a cautious manner that takes note of terrain and enemies. If I run through enemies I click the script, if I'm facing desync prone bosses like the courtyard boss then I constantly use the script to make sure enemy locations are correct. That's actually the bigger issue.

Even if I play perfectly around desync, enemies will still desync. A hilarious example is playing in a fleet cells map. One rare enemy had a haste aura and they kept constantly desyncing through the doorway as they tried approaching me. 4 times they appeared on my screen when they were not able to reach me at all. That's something I'm sure you've learned to ignore, not knowing if an enemy is actually there. In the case of the courtyard boss it can be deadly since the cyclone boss loves desyncing around corners/walls. He will often not appear and you have to notice his arctic armor ground effect to follow his trail(or /oos).

Playing around desync gets tiring. Even when you perfectly play around it you can make mistakes, especially if enemies themselves desync. It's also very negative for new players who never play around it and are just confused.

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SL4Y3R написал:

Not to completely side track your post, but how divinity? I've been tempted to buy, but haven't played turn based since the FF series. The battle system does intrigue me, I've watched videos, but otherwise I haven't heard much else.

It is pretty damn awesome, I recommend it if you have any love for the cRPG genre and especially a satisfying tactical turn based combat system.