is The Shaper a fair fight? discussion

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plodd написал:

Whats wrong with that as a tactic?

Maybe that's a way to avoid the teleport also.

nothing.
you can avoid getting hit by many things in the game, by constantly running around.

it does not neccesarily mean whatever tried to hit you is a fair or well-telegraphed mechanic.

also, one of the things that makes an attack or mechanic unfair in my opinion, is room for player error being too small.
we are all humans, not machines with millisecond reflexes.
some players can do it sure. Koreans for example or Bullet Hell veterans from Japan. or Mortezzah, who never had to dodge anything because his char is that immovable object capable of stopping unstoppable force.
I'm neither of the above, so if I get there (and trust me, I never will) only to get one-shot by this crap, my reaction would probably be "fuck this!", and never try it again.
fair mechanics get a different reaction. more along the lines of "ok you got me this time, game. I'll be back!".

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morbo написал:

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1235 написал:

hard fights are good especially for the poor players cause that means the items will be worth a lot and you can farm them and get rich, otherwise the only way to get rich would be trading

In theory. In practice poor players wont ever see the Shaper, because you need to have good gear + spend a ton on map progression.

Uber Lab is slightly better for "poor" players, but their actual domain is Dried Lake & Merci Lab at most.

I am a poor player and don`t do driad lakes and mercy labs, what are you talking about? if i want a high level map and don`t own one, I buy one and is all, for that exist the MF toons, don`t think all are as you friend

Stop complain, soon we will see "world first melee facetank shaper".

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Disrupted написал:

Ill just come out and say it, the community is full of crybaby casuals who want everything on a platter.

yep.

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Derpey написал:

Also, I wish GGG would stop making content that only 0.005% of their player base will experience, it's a stupid concept and unfair for the rest of the community.

no, casual players complaining that they cant have and beat everything with their current lack of effort are selfish unrealistic children who are being unfair.

Unfair for the rest of the community... fucking hell.



the final boss of the entire game is really hard. What, you guys didnt see that coming? Perhaps because the rest of the game has been made so easy to stop you lot crying like a bunch of fucking kids that you forgot theres actually supposed to be some effort involved?

Oh but ssf and what about my dom blow 3k life build oh dear... fuck sake, get a grip.

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snakesolidx написал:

Stop complain, soon we will see "world first melee facetank shaper".

there's a face tank of the laser.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9PMWag65wTg

Blade Vortex + Vaal Pact + utterly ridiculous gear.
though he didn't try to tank something he couldn't leech through, like a Teleport Slam or standing outside Zana's bubble.

@Snorkle, yes the final boss is supposed to be hard.
but is "hard" necessarily equal to "bullet hell of one-shots" ?

nothing wrong with one shots which are properly telegraphed and give proper time and room for the players to react once they see it coming, or otherwise mitigate without super-cheesing an already-broken mechanic (yes, BV + VP as an example).

I'm sure it could be done differently.

Eng game boss can't be killed by 10c build? Nerf it!
*LOGIC OF SOME POE PLAYERS*

And yes, there are players which killed Shaper on life based builds.

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johnKeys написал:

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snakesolidx написал:

Stop complain, soon we will see "world first melee facetank shaper".

there's a face tank of the laser.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9PMWag65wTg

Blade Vortex + Vaal Pact + utterly ridiculous gear.
though he didn't try to tank something he couldn't leech through, like a Teleport Slam or standing outside Zana's bubble.

@Snorkle, yes the final boss is supposed to be hard.
but is "hard" necessarily equal to "bullet hell of one-shots" ?

nothing wrong with one shots which are properly telegraphed and give proper time and room for the players to react once they see it coming, or otherwise mitigate without super-cheesing an already-broken mechanic (yes, BV + VP as an example).

I'm sure it could be done differently.

At this point (about 1 week into the expansion), I have the Shaper on farm. I can definitively say that his moves are properly telegraphed, and there are very few elements to the fight that cannot be manually dodged or circumvented through proper preparation.

Your argument about mitigating through "super-cheesing" is self-defeating. Or, rather, it's circular. When you stop to think about it and try to define "super-cheese", a likely description that you come up with is "something that makes ultra-endgame fights relatively easy". Is it a surprise, then, that "super-cheese" is the way to tackle the fight?

In particular, if they would remove what you'd currently label as "super-cheese", players will find a new method to triviallise the fight, which you would then again label "super-cheese". By definition, anything that will make that fight easy deserves that label.

I should also mention that there's nothing wrong with "super-cheese" existing in the game. I'm going to link the following article, which tremendously helped me think about how to approach my competitive MtG play back in the day. The TL;DR is essentially "gitgud", but the author makes a number of valid points. I suggest reading it with an open mind. Article.

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johnKeys написал:

but is "hard" necessarily equal to "bullet hell of one-shots" ?

non-argument, the only part that is supposed to be anywhere close to bullet-hell is avoidable as long as you protect zana and stay in bubble.

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Disrupted написал:

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johnKeys написал:

but is "hard" necessarily equal to "bullet hell of one-shots" ?

non-argument, the only part that is supposed to be anywhere close to bullet-hell is avoidable as long as you protect zana and stay in bubble.

really?
watch the 3rd stage where there's two of them, blasting you from multiple sides while a bunch of explosive "vortex orbs" chase you around.
it goes full Ikaruga at that point.

in the first two stages... well he's not Malachai in the sense he isn't filling the entire screen with crap from start to eye-twitching finish, but everything he does is either a one-shot or a near-one-shot to a majority of characters at that level, so yeah...

@acme_myst, the combination in that video of Vaal Pact and something which hits a billion times per second - is broken as fuck. "god mode" level of broken.
but I'm not the one to tell you "don't use this". you can "cheese" any fight you want.
I surely have in the relatively-recent past. off-screening Shock And Horror / Palace Dominus and all that. not proud of it, but winning is everything right?

I AM however the one to ask of GGG, not to balance the freakin fight assuming the player uses broken mechanics.

two entirely different things.

My suggestion is to try the shaper encounter first, before complaining. The current videos do not adequately reflect the fight. The shaper is actually very well tuned:

-> The beam can be mitigated - ES-BV is particularly vulnerable to the beam
-> The boss teleport-instagibs only if you are not in melee range
-> The important "bullets" move slow as hell and you can choose where they drop
-> The damage of the other bullets can be outleeched

All in all a very fun fight. Challenging but not at all impossible for appropriately geared and skilled players. If you are able to "not stand in the fire" you will be fine.