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play SSF. its very rewarding
agreed for ops case
i am not too keen on SSF but i would say if you ever feel like trade is "cheating", SSF really is the best way to fully enjoy the game for op.
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Сообщениеexsea#172419 дек. 2024 г., 19:42:23
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To illustrate my point:
2 players are playing the game. They reach some point in the game we'll call power spike #1 (act end boss?)
Player 1 traded for some gear, and has high life, resistances and damage across skills. Let's give this some arbitrary number value, say 500 rating points.
Player 2 did not trade for gear, and instead has white and blue gear, little life, very little res, but +25% light radius! They are weaker than player 1, so let's give them a lower rating of about 300.
If the majority of players are like player 1, then the average player rating at power spike #1 is higher toward 500.
When devs look at this data, they say "Well the game was balanced around rating 400 at this point, but players are often well above that. Let's tweak this point up a bit closer to 500 to keep players on the intended curve".
Players like player 1 are fine with this. They meet the rating requirements on average.
Players like player 2 are now even further behind the curve, making something that was hard, now near impossible
This is the issue.
this issue becomes less apparent if GGG is consistent with keeping players in check, nerfing over performing builds.
if the gap between "good build" vs "omfg what am i doing" build is reduced, the gear required does not need to be too crazy.
in poe1, this is a huge issue as getting good gear IS a requirement. whereas is path2 getting decent gear is required but getting good gear is a bonus.
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Сообщениеexsea#172419 дек. 2024 г., 19:45:19
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To illustrate my point:
2 players are playing the game. They reach some point in the game we'll call power spike #1 (act end boss?)
Player 1 traded for some gear, and has high life, resistances and damage across skills. Let's give this some arbitrary number value, say 500 rating points.
Player 2 did not trade for gear, and instead has white and blue gear, little life, very little res, but +25% light radius! They are weaker than player 1, so let's give them a lower rating of about 300.
If the majority of players are like player 1, then the average player rating at power spike #1 is higher toward 500.
When devs look at this data, they say "Well the game was balanced around rating 400 at this point, but players are often well above that. Let's tweak this point up a bit closer to 500 to keep players on the intended curve".
Players like player 1 are fine with this. They meet the rating requirements on average.
Players like player 2 are now even further behind the curve, making something that was hard, now near impossible
This is the issue.
Hahaha, that's quite the example! I don't see how anyone can even end up in Player 2's situation with how the itemization in the game works. If by some stroke of utterly terrible luck that somehow happens, just do a second run through maybe two areas with a few bosses and rare mobs and you'll be solid.
To use your example, the player at a rating of 300 is likely 2 hours of grinding away from reaching 400, while the player at 500 would likely need a week's worth just to get to 520.
That's how these games are balanced. The average power level is fairly easy to obtain as long as builds are being monitored. The more usual issue is being forced into a specific build because it's the only viable strategy.
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СообщениеStryfer#095319 дек. 2024 г., 19:55:43
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Yeah it was a bit of hyperbole to help illustrate the idea, so you probably aren't far off the mark with your observations. But player 2 is literally me. I just recognize that my luck was probably some of the worst possible, and try not to over generalize. So, you might be right.
2 hours? I went back and tried to grind out upgrades for about 12 hours. I upgraded tons of gear for the most ridiculous possible rolls. It was actually a nightmare. I could have maybe powered ahead, but I quit because I didn't see any prospect for improvement, as every single upgrade attempt failed, and I couldn't do anything about my gear progression at all. Impossible? No. Was I going to do it? Also no.
I just hope this isn't even close to the average experience for new players.
Either way, hyperbole (hopefully), but the fact remains that the concern is more about potential balance passes based on "inflated" player power as illustrated. Whether or not that fear is founded does actually remain to be seen.
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Сообщениеfatesunder#531019 дек. 2024 г., 20:13:50
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Reading many of OP's responses, it doesn't sound like he just doesn't like trading: he doesn't like that OTHER people can trade or may enjoy trading.
That's simply childish and unacceptable imo. If you want to advocate for buffs in SFF to make up for no trade that's one thing, but just wanting no one to trade because you don't like to trade is sad.
Pretty much lol! They're on some colicky toddler vibe but it's whatever - we both know they're definitely not getting rid of trade :)
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I also think the game being balanced around trade makes it unfun.
Like if the game expects you to advance in power because you are able to trade, and you don't trade, then you will be stuck grinding for a long time and it will get boring. I don't really understanding people who say "just play SSF", it doesn't work, it becomes quite boring and grindy and unrewarding when you don't get any upgrades for hours on end. Unless I'm missing something.
Last epoch addresses this extremely well. Actually the entirety of itemization, crafting, legendary system, trade vs. circle of fortune, is SO MUCH BETTER than POE2 it seems laughable that a game with such amazing gameplay as POE2 has such a trash itemization and crafting system.
Also why would you want to trade? Doesn't it effectively mean someone is playing the game for you? Rather than playing the game, getting lucky, being able to craft in a deterministic way, and feeling like you've really worked hard to put together, you log onto a website and whisper some dude to get basically the perfect item you need.
Same with following a build guide, but that's another topic, I don't understand why people want other people to play their game for them. It's like the ARPG genre is plagued by people who don't think working for something is worthwhile.
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СообщениеHotspurr#549420 дек. 2024 г., 00:13:06
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Same with following a build guide, but that's another topic, I don't understand why people want other people to play their game for them. It's like the ARPG genre is plagued by people who don't think working for something is worthwhile.
some people may have less time to game. and thus any step in the wrong direction can be punishing to them. respec's and regearing cost time. if you chose the wrong class with the wrong expectation, rolling a new character would take much effort.
personally i m on the same page as you. my mindset is if you follow a build guide the game is playing you instead of you playing the game.
BUT i dont look down on anyone following buildguides.
i DO have a bone to pick if people following buildguides downplays other peoples opinion such as the game being too easy when all they did was just follow a buildguide using an optimized build. and at this time of writing i would even go out to say that some builds are simply over performing.
if you need to follow a buildguide to succeed. dont gloat.
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Сообщениеexsea#172420 дек. 2024 г., 00:19:47
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the sad thing is all the zoomer streamers who think they are hotshots because they put fancy uniques and the best gear on new characters and melt the bosses in seconds. congrats you guys.... you used a god weapon vs a low level boss. it's no challenge. it's like if everyone had access to cheat codes they would use them... and sadly they are. the cheat codes are all available via trading and just using loot you found on a dif character.
i wish they figured out a way to balance this game better. i'd loveee a hard mode imo.
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I hate knowing that I got a decent item that I can't use.
I COULD turn that decent item into power if I engage in trade, but I have to stop having fun and open some boring trade window where i might or might not get an item to get that power spike.
My progression turns linear, I'm no longer finding cool random elements in the battlefield and going with the flow and creating unique builds. I'm just following a cookie cutter build, getting cookie cutter resists, buying items with the cookie cutter mods.
The magic is gone.
Many of us just don't like having to haggle, we don't like engaging with others, we just want to play the game and not have to think, "There are players becoming FAR stronger than I am, because they are sitting in trade all day and trying to rip off other people".
The animosity of wondering if you're getting ripped off. The fear you might be ripping someone else off. The clunky interfaces for trade. It REALLY kills the experience and has a tremendous downside to how the game is balanced.
How much effort is added to all these systems and how much are drop rates restricted to ensure the global economy can work?
Games that have public trading for the best items in the game without common NO DROP for the best items always end up being a charade. The most powerful players invariably end up being those who trade over even playing the game.
Systems and balance always end up being shifted and made less because they need to be tuned and altered in so many unseen ways to cater to the trading community.
It's just such a downer to know that trade exists and that your biggest power sink isn't your skill, it's not time investment, it's that other players are becoming far stronger because they happen to be online at the right time when someone happens to be selling a certain item for the right price.
It's so inherently unfun and just destroys the whole damn experience.
Should a player be able to give their friend some cool sword? Sure. Maybe we could limit 1 item traded per week or something across accounts.
But trade by its very nature just sucks the fun out of games like this in ways most people aren't even aware of. So many elements of the game end up altered from dev time, to unique bugs, to design considerations and resources that could be going into making actually playing the game better, but instead players are given the freedom to ruin their experience by getting items that aren't properly tuned for their current place in the game.
Given the option most people would ask for all the money in the world at birth, and all the priviledge and they'd grow up to be whiney, worthless, and ungrateful. And this is a bit similar to how trade runes what could have been such a well crafted game where people could enjoy their hard work without fear of missing out or having their experience made more difficult by those who engage in a far more trivial and boring aspect of trade.
There is no need for this system? Why does it exist? Why do we allow the balance of games to be ruined so a small subset of players can rip others off and amass power? Real life is already unfair enough! This is a game, the rules are meant to create balanced play that's FUN, not dreary currency systems leading to linear and pre planned power gain!
You might argue, but what if you don't have this or that item! People need to trade to compete! Then change the loot drop percentages to favor items of your class! EASY!
Trade is another trope that we've allowed to fester that makes games less fun to play in so many ways that most aren't even aware of. It's extra systems and design and code that all draws from the core game and diminishes the reward of having fun slaying monsters.
It plays into profit margins and helps GGG sell stash tabs, but it's such an unfortunate system that makes games like this inherently less fun for the majority of players whether they know it or not. Could we pay 50 bucks for a mod that removes trade but gives us loot drop benefits in other ways to make up for it?
Nothing kills the longterm health of a game than one that has trade and new players feel poor and worthless with not just a base game to learn, but some trade system on top of it so they can get items not in a fun way, but by haggling with a throng of power players who have YEARS of currency accumulated that makes new players feel like a poor sub class.
There aren't fantastical item scaling in POE yet as it's early access, but this WILL creep into POE 2 unless trade is revised, or a new mode is added for those who don't want to have to engage with this boring, linear, predictable system that sucks all the fun out of the game.
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СообщениеIcyMistV#512120 дек. 2024 г., 00:22:05
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i like this concept but not being able to do a team game in this mode limits the experience too much. love for it to be No trades but team up sometimes if i want to and replay the bosses w people.
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play SSF. its very rewarding
agreed for ops case
i am not too keen on SSF but i would say if you ever feel like trade is "cheating", SSF really is the best way to fully enjoy the game for op.
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СообщениеIcyMistV#512120 дек. 2024 г., 00:23:15
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I went back and tried to grind out upgrades for about 12 hours. I upgraded tons of gear for the most ridiculous possible rolls. It was actually a nightmare. I could have maybe powered ahead, but I quit because I didn't see any prospect for improvement, as every single upgrade attempt failed.
Aww man, I'm really sorry to hear that... In contrast, my experience was pretty much what I described. I got stuck on Draven in Act 1 for the first time and after a few orb uses on a staff, I took him down within 2 minutes.
Act 2 was an absolute nightmare to get through, though partly my fault for not realizing what I need to make the build work.
Act 3 was near effortless in comparison when I finally picked up the skills that glued everything together. Not to mention, again, getting merely one key modifier on both my weapon and gloves that was far more impactful than the four semi-decent ones I had before.
No trading and only repeating areas where I kept dying until I just didn't die anymore.
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СообщениеStryfer#095320 дек. 2024 г., 00:43:34
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