TRADE is such a detriment to POE 2 being fun

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MakaveliPT#7753 написал:

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crazyfingers619#3901 написал:

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eeeeechuta#7800 написал:

Because of frequent checkpoint system and boss checkpoint system in campaign I think you can have a good time without trade. Better time even, as leaving the game to engage in trade really breaks immersion. Feels like 'cheating'.

For later trials/higher maps tiers, without trade it is far too punishing, you need better items because at that point it is simply a POB game of pumping a combination of DPS+EHP to keep up with monster HP/dmg numbers.

If a game requires trade, it's broken. It's inherently unfun and will alienate a huge swath of players who want to play the game and not sit in a trade window.

There is potential for far bigger profits from a larger audience, than relying on nickel and diming the small group of die hards who obsess over trade.

Then go play SSF or gtfo and find a new game to play, you have choices, but looks like your choice would be to ruin the fun and dismiss people who like the trade and the economy, arpgs were always like this, it´s not my fault that you suck at bartering or dont/cant learn how to value stuff.

Changes to SSF wouldn't affect you of course, and it is you who wants to ruin the fun of SSF gameplay which, again, wouldn't affect you. So it appears you've pwned yourself there my friend.

Man it's astonishing how many people are missing the point of this whole thing. Here's the issues, list style and with not many word

1) Trade being more viable for gear progression than crafting during the campaign causes issues when developers do balance passes.

2) Vendors and Gambling gear is random, and costs more gold than most players have without hours of farming (don't level up, or that gear you're trying to buy is gone).

3) Using crafting orbs early on is a massive trap because when you get scammed by the gamble rolls, you have no more currency and cannot afford to trade for the gear you need when you fall woefully behind the power curve.

Read on if you care to:

The issue myself and a few others seem to be having is that the game is balanced around gear progression, but gear progression is... definitely one of the progression systems of all time. An amalgamation of gamble rolling stats on items, pairing attempts with good bases that can be hard to obtain, and requiring currency that is incredibly rare. Bricking an item with +5% light radius / +5 dexterity is a thing that happens... a lot. So getting 2 decent affixes with your cheap currency only to brick the item with regals / exalts is like getting kicked in the groin. It's not enjoyable.

Crafting for gear progression is just not viable for a casual gamer. So people will trade to stay on the curve. People who don't want to engage in trading will be severely impacted when a balance pass happens, because they aren't able to craft gear on par with what's available for trade.

It's that simple. It's just facts.

The only debate that should be happening is how to avoid these issues.

I don't get it... How does other players getting stronger affect you? Are you trying to push for the top 1% on ladder? Do you have friends or a guild that doesn't want to play with you unless you're at a certain power level?

I'm not even playing SSF, but I'm still choosing not to trade because it makes the game too easy. It's there if I ever get hardstuck at some ridiculously high level content, but right now I don't need it.

My question is, what is the experience you want from the game and how does other people trading ruin it for you?

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Stryfer#0953 написал:

My question is, what is the experience you want from the game and how does other people trading ruin it for you?

I'll just quote myself so you read it.

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fatesunder#5310 написал:

Crafting for gear progression is just not viable for a casual gamer. So people will trade to stay on the curve. People who don't want to engage in trading will be severely impacted when a balance pass happens, because they aren't able to craft gear on par with what's available for trade.

It's in there. Maybe you missed it?

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fatesunder#5310 написал:

...when a balance pass happens

Oh, right. So other people's progression affects the game balance as a whole, and creates a situation where if you don't use the same methodology, you will fall behind the power curve and have a much worse experience. That's the point of this thread.

Edit since it may not be obvious: The desired experience would be one where players are able to stay on equal footing regardless of if they trade or not, as then balance passes would be equal across both demographics.

And all of this is subjective to begin with. One person's experience isn't the same as another's. You have to look at statistical norms to get the whole picture. No idea what that currently looks like. Everything is anecdotal right now.

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fatesunder#5310 написал:

The only debate that should be happening is how to avoid these issues.

Play a different genre. I'm sorry man, but balancing stats across random gear drops is one the biggest draws in an ARPG.

Some players trade because they'd rather skip the grind and just get the ultimate setup right away (they're cheating themselves out of the gameplay experience, imo, but to each their own).

If you're worried about balance issues, these usually only come into play at the very pinnacle of the endgame, at which point the only thing you have left to do is endlessly grind out those last 5-10% stat boosts you need to test whatever the next peak is.

I did. It wasn't for me. I left feedback in another post and left. I'm not going to sit here and cry. I like the idea of the game though, so I'm just browsing the threads. I saw this massive gap in communication and thought maybe I could clear up what appeared to be people talking past each other on this issue.

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fatesunder#5310 написал:

...when a balance pass happens

The first balance pass GGG did was to increase drops. They've yet to show indication that they're balancing the game around trading. The majority of ARPGs don't.

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Stryfer#0953 написал:

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fatesunder#5310 написал:

...when a balance pass happens

The first balance pass GGG did was to increase drops. They've yet to show indication that they're balancing the game around trading. The majority of ARPGs don't.

Yeah that's a good observation. They did do exactly that. I don't think that's the main takeaway here, though. The issue is that when they do a balance pass, looking at how players are progressing, the people trading for gear will likely far exceed those progressing via engaging with the crafting system solely. This means that it will look like players are much more powerful than they otherwise would be. This may result in buffs to difficulty at different stages of the game based on the player power curve. Players not trading at that time will be at a disadvantage compared to those that do.

Okay, I get why you feel concerned, but I think you're too worried about something that may or may not happen.

The fact that SSF does exist, means that they need to make sure the game is beatable without trade. It's gonna be a heck of a lot grindy, of course, but that's par the course for the genre and why trade even exists in the first place.

In my experience, with games like this, the difficulty spikes tend to be adding more higher tier content, rather than ramping up what's already there. Besides, most players who trade for power don't want to have to struggle, anyway. They do it because they want to mow down everything effortlessly.

I don't think you need to worry. This isn't an MMO where you'll be gatekept out of raids if you don't have the best gear available.

To illustrate my point:

2 players are playing the game. They reach some point in the game we'll call power spike #1 (act end boss?)

Player 1 traded for some gear, and has high life, resistances and damage across skills. Let's give this some arbitrary number value, say 500 rating points.

Player 2 did not trade for gear, and instead has white and blue gear, little life, very little res, but +25% light radius! They are weaker than player 1, so let's give them a lower rating of about 300.

If the majority of players are like player 1, then the average player rating at power spike #1 is higher toward 500.

When devs look at this data, they say "Well the game was balanced around rating 400 at this point, but players are often well above that. Let's tweak this point up a bit closer to 500 to keep players on the intended curve".

Players like player 1 are fine with this. They meet the rating requirements on average.

Players like player 2 are now even further behind the curve, making something that was hard, now near impossible

This is the issue.