CRAFTING SHOULD NOT BE RNG, OTHERWISE IT'S NOT CRAFTING

imho:

"meaningful combat" requires "meaningful crafting" (and pls also "meaningful trials" for that matter)

when stats are very weighty, it's kinda required so we can counter bad rng in any way possible that isn't just trade.

a "meaningful crafting" system most certainly would solve oh so many issues and complaints all in one swoop.
-gatelocked behind gear
-bad feeling about gambling in general (multiple stuff falls under this category)
-build diversity
-chinafarmers and botters
to just name a few, there are more

a proper crafting system can be grindy. it can be grindy to get the mats in the first place, but if we can decide into what stats they go into, it not only would be a rewarding feeling to have put in that time in the first place, it also would be a very meaningful goal worth working towards.
a proper crafting system certainly can hold player retention just as much if not better than gambling. just look at some MMORPG's that are around for a long time. crafting doesn't automatically make the game easy, or too quick to be progressed in. it just has to be done right, with the right amount of grind for mats.
and folks that don't wanna do the grind themself, they still could buy the mats on trade. a win for everyone involved i guess?

it certainly would be a much more pleasent feeling for everyone involved, including the devs and forum supports for that matter. just a lot of complaints and issues would go away in one swoop.

grind for mats > grind for gambling stats
spread the word :D


edit for addendum:
-meaningful and rewarding feeling of progression in endgame-content
-it also could help the community being more friendly. have you ever been in an awesome guild in any other game? have they shared you low-lvl stuff just to get you started, helped you understand which stats are important for what reason, and so on? sharing some low-lvl mats to help out a newcomer, how is that not a good thing :-)
i'd love that in PoE2 tbh

Yes please... give us a way to upgrade an affix. I'm beyond tired of bricking almost every single level 80+ item with t1 - 3 affixes

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Naztrey#9177 написал:

imho:

"meaningful combat" requires "meaningful crafting" (and pls also "meaningful trials" for that matter)

when stats are very weighty, it's kinda required so we can counter bad rng in any way possible that isn't just trade.

a "meaningful crafting" system most certainly would solve oh so many issues and complaints all in one swoop.
-gatelocked behind gear
-bad feeling about gambling in general (multiple stuff falls under this category)
-build diversity
-chinafarmers and botters
to just name a few, there are more

a proper crafting system can be grindy. it can be grindy to get the mats in the first place, but if we can decide into what stats they go into, it not only would be a rewarding feeling to have put in that time in the first place, it also would be a very meaningful goal worth working towards.
a proper crafting system certainly can hold player retention just as much if not better than gambling. just look at some MMORPG's that are around for a long time. crafting doesn't automatically make the game easy, or too quick to be progressed in. it just has to be done right, with the right amount of grind for mats.
and folks that don't wanna do the grind themself, they still could buy the mats on trade. a win for everyone involved i guess?

it certainly would be a much more pleasent feeling for everyone involved, including the devs and forum supports for that matter. just a lot of complaints and issues would go away in one swoop.

grind for mats > grind for gambling stats
spread the word :D


edit for addendum:
-meaningful and rewarding feeling of progression in endgame-content
-it also could help the community being more friendly. have you ever been in an awesome guild in any other game? have they shared you low-lvl stuff just to get you started, helped you understand which stats are important for what reason, and so on? sharing some low-lvl mats to help out a newcomer, how is that not a good thing :-)
i'd love that in PoE2 tbh

You bring up a lot of solid points, and I agree that a more meaningful and deterministic crafting system could solve multiple problems at once, especially around player retention, gear progression, and reducing frustration with RNG.

GGG has already mentioned in interviews that PoE2 will eventually include more deterministic crafting options, but they don’t want players to be able to create perfect items too easily right from the start. Their goal is to preserve that tension and thrill of loot hunting, while slowly introducing systems that give players more control.

Some of your points line up well with what we’ve already seen in PoE, for example:

- Harvest crafting gave players more deterministic control over mods, and was one of the most beloved systems for this reason.
- Essences, fossils, and influences also offer semi-deterministic outcomes.
- Tradeable crafting materials already allow players who don’t want to farm to buy the ingredients, which you mentioned as a potential “win for everyone.”

I also agree that grinding for crafting materials feels a lot better than grinding for currency just to gamble with it. The former creates a stronger sense of progression and personal investment, while the latter often leads to frustration, especially for players who don’t want to rely on trade.

The idea that crafting could promote a more supportive and generous community is also really insightful. Systems that encourage sharing low-tier mats or helping each other gear up could definitely foster more social and cooperative play, something PoE has always struggled with outside of trade.

In short: GGG has acknowledged that crafting needs improvement in PoE2, and while the devs are cautious about going full deterministic, the current direction shows they’re listening and slowly evolving the system. Hopefully, we’ll see more of this in future patches.

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Twelten#1961 написал:

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Naztrey#9177 написал:

imho:

"meaningful combat" requires "meaningful crafting" (and pls also "meaningful trials" for that matter)

when stats are very weighty, it's kinda required so we can counter bad rng in any way possible that isn't just trade.

a "meaningful crafting" system most certainly would solve oh so many issues and complaints all in one swoop.
-gatelocked behind gear
-bad feeling about gambling in general (multiple stuff falls under this category)
-build diversity
-chinafarmers and botters
to just name a few, there are more

a proper crafting system can be grindy. it can be grindy to get the mats in the first place, but if we can decide into what stats they go into, it not only would be a rewarding feeling to have put in that time in the first place, it also would be a very meaningful goal worth working towards.
a proper crafting system certainly can hold player retention just as much if not better than gambling. just look at some MMORPG's that are around for a long time. crafting doesn't automatically make the game easy, or too quick to be progressed in. it just has to be done right, with the right amount of grind for mats.
and folks that don't wanna do the grind themself, they still could buy the mats on trade. a win for everyone involved i guess?

it certainly would be a much more pleasent feeling for everyone involved, including the devs and forum supports for that matter. just a lot of complaints and issues would go away in one swoop.

grind for mats > grind for gambling stats
spread the word :D


edit for addendum:
-meaningful and rewarding feeling of progression in endgame-content
-it also could help the community being more friendly. have you ever been in an awesome guild in any other game? have they shared you low-lvl stuff just to get you started, helped you understand which stats are important for what reason, and so on? sharing some low-lvl mats to help out a newcomer, how is that not a good thing :-)
i'd love that in PoE2 tbh

You bring up a lot of solid points, and I agree that a more meaningful and deterministic crafting system could solve multiple problems at once, especially around player retention, gear progression, and reducing frustration with RNG.

GGG has already mentioned in interviews that PoE2 will eventually include more deterministic crafting options, but they don’t want players to be able to create perfect items too easily right from the start. Their goal is to preserve that tension and thrill of loot hunting, while slowly introducing systems that give players more control.

Some of your points line up well with what we’ve already seen in PoE, for example:

- Harvest crafting gave players more deterministic control over mods, and was one of the most beloved systems for this reason.
- Essences, fossils, and influences also offer semi-deterministic outcomes.
- Tradeable crafting materials already allow players who don’t want to farm to buy the ingredients, which you mentioned as a potential “win for everyone.”

I also agree that grinding for crafting materials feels a lot better than grinding for currency just to gamble with it. The former creates a stronger sense of progression and personal investment, while the latter often leads to frustration, especially for players who don’t want to rely on trade.

The idea that crafting could promote a more supportive and generous community is also really insightful. Systems that encourage sharing low-tier mats or helping each other gear up could definitely foster more social and cooperative play, something PoE has always struggled with outside of trade.

In short: GGG has acknowledged that crafting needs improvement in PoE2, and while the devs are cautious about going full deterministic, the current direction shows they’re listening and slowly evolving the system. Hopefully, we’ll see more of this in future patches.

sounds great. i haven't played PoE1 so i'm clueless about how it is over there. thx for the insight, good info :-)

and i totally agree with GGG on that point. making it too easy to craft perfect gear would lower the end-game value of a meaningful crafting system, cause economic issues down the line and more.

the grind for mats certainly is something that is required to not make it too easy, but also has to not be too grindy with 0.00001% chances or else we end up with a similar issue as we have now. chinafarmers would win on that system and trade would be necessary.

hence i hope they will put the crafting in play rather sooner than later, so that there is enough time during early access for playtesting and adjusting i.e. droprates and such.

gl hf! <3

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Barthalos#1797 написал:

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Twelten#1961 написал:

So what should crafting actually look like?
Here’s a proper system that would make more sense and feel like actual progression, we the player have control over it, and we as a player know it as crafting:
-Transmutation Orb : Add a random prefix
-Augmentation Orb : Add a random suffix
-Alchemist Orb : Add 4 random suffix/prefix
-Regal Orb : Upgrade one affix to Tier 1–3
-Exalted Orb : Upgrade one affix to Tier 4–6
-Chaos Orb : Upgrade one affix to Tier 7–8
-Divine Orb : Upgrade one affix to Tier 9–10
-Vaal Orb : The only true gamble: can change suffix/prefix, can change tiers, break or exceed into T11–T12

So you're looking for an item editor and to completely delegitimize loot. In a looting game.

What loot?

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Twelten#1961 написал:

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Gordyne#2944 написал:

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Twelten#1961 написал:

Yeah just let him cook. Man’s out here dodging arguments like Neo on espresso, twisting, spinning, shifting goalposts mid-air. It’s like debating a greased-up ferret in a maze made of jello.

I'm not dodging anything.

Problem is, you guys keep stating that everything is crafting and then the discussion gets very confusing.

Runewords are crafting now?

I thought crafting was, like you said, being able to tweak every affix.

This doesn't exist in D2. If you find a rare item there, you can't tweak it to your liking.

There's no way to actually have a logic debate when "crafting" is anything you deem as "crafting".

And, as I said, allowing the player to get predefined results really takes away at the exicetement and unpredictability of looting games.

But people nowadays are entitled and only want the "good" that comes with arpg, they don't want to be "unlucky" sometimes, every drop has to be an upgrade.

Do you know what would happen if GGG listened to you?

In a few months people would start asking GGG to make the crafting even easier, reduce the cost...

And easier, reduce the cost more...

Until nothing in the game matters anymore.

You know that would happen.

Man, my original point was simple, either give players some control in crafting (half RNG, half decision-making), or go all-in on deterministic crafting with RNG coming from other sources, like vaal orbs or drop rates. If that basic idea is too hard to grasp, then maybe that’s the real issue here, you just dont get it or you are just a gambling addict.

At the end of the day, it’s an opinion. You disagree, that’s fine. But data and player feedback don’t lie, most players prefer some form of control over crafting. PoE2’s current system feels punishing to many, and ignoring that just because of some purist “RNG or bust” mindset doesn’t make sense.

Game design isn’t just about theory, it’s also about retention. If thousands of players bounce because the crafting feels like a brick wall, that’s not “git gud”, that’s a business problem. And yeah, player sentiment does influence devs, because player numbers talk louder than forum takes.

Some middle ground in crafting isn’t about making the game “easy”, it’s about respecting player time. Not everyone enjoys gambling on every upgrade attempt. Some like it, some don’t. A good system can serve both.

I disagree.

Every time you make it easier to acquire good items you directly make the whole game easier.

Loot drops need to be buffed or else killing monsters feels unrewarding. That's something pretty much everyone agrees right now.

What happens when you buff loot drops considerably AND also give powerful crafting tools to the player?

The game gets extremely easy. There is nothing to "consider", no need to adapt/think or play well because you already overpower most enemies and bosses because you can cover any weakness with a bit of crafting.

And it won't stop there. You know that once GGG implements this kind of crafting, people will cry to make it easier and cheaper to craft. To a point that you can play blindfolded until you reach red maps...

Buffing loot drops is much more interesting, because it feels more natural than slamming +30% X resist on an item. I don't think you can do both(buff drops and implement deterministic crafting)

I think crafting can only really work in SSF mode.

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Gordyne#2944 написал:

I disagree.

Every time you make it easier to acquire good items you directly make the whole game easier.

Loot drops need to be buffed or else killing monsters feels unrewarding. That's something pretty much everyone agrees right now.

What happens when you buff loot drops considerably AND also give powerful crafting tools for the player?

The game gets extremely easy. There is nothing to "consider", no need to adapt/think or play well because you already overpower most enemies and bosses.

Buffing loot drops is much more interesting, because it feels more natural than slamming +30% X resist on an item.

I think crafting can only really work in SSF mode.

play some MMORPG with good crafting system, and you'll see crafting does by no mean have to make the game more easy.

in some instances, it even can go to the opposite extreme. having dedicated "professions" that are highly sought after in guilds and such.

crafting is no bad thing, it doesn't make stuff more easy, and it doesn't allow for faster progression. this all comes down to how it is implemented, how the droprates are adjusted and more.

it is a lot more complex than you make it out to be :-)

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Naztrey#9177 написал:

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Gordyne#2944 написал:

I disagree.

Every time you make it easier to acquire good items you directly make the whole game easier.

Loot drops need to be buffed or else killing monsters feels unrewarding. That's something pretty much everyone agrees right now.

What happens when you buff loot drops considerably AND also give powerful crafting tools for the player?

The game gets extremely easy. There is nothing to "consider", no need to adapt/think or play well because you already overpower most enemies and bosses.

Buffing loot drops is much more interesting, because it feels more natural than slamming +30% X resist on an item.

I think crafting can only really work in SSF mode.

play some MMORPG with good crafting system, and you'll see crafting does by no mean have to make the game more easy.

in some instances, it even can go to the opposite extreme. having dedicated "professions" that are highly sought after in guilds and such.

crafting is no bad thing, it doesn't make stuff more easy, and it doesn't allow for faster progression. this all comes down to how it is implemented, how the droprates are adjusted and more.

it is a lot more complex than you make it out to be :-)

95% of MMORPGs are piss easy and can be played blinfolded, unless you reach the high endgame.

Your HP bar barely moves even when taking damage from enemies while standing still, so I don't think it compares to PoE1 and 2

OFC the crafting system there doesn't create any problems, because it isn't even needed unless you reach the peak of endgame.

Most MMORPGs nowadays are trash because only endgame is relevant and everything else will only pose some threat if you afk for like 20 seconds

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masskillers#5403 написал:

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Gordyne#2944 написал:

I don't understand you last two points. Crafting as requested in this post has never really been implemented in PoE. And I think it never will since it would affect trade tremendously.

Oh no, how will trade ever recover?

Trade is done because crafting is shite. I for one would avoid trade entirely if I could craft my own items so boohoo, crafted gear would replace trading for gear.

This is the essence of the issue. You’re arguing with people who like playing the market more than playing the game. They see crafting as a threat to their control of the trade system. GGG has a decision to make about POE 2: Will it be a game or will it be a market? We know what they chose for POE 1. I expect they’ll make the same decision for POE 2.

I have no interest playing a market.

My take
I think the base system lacks of options...

Alterations should be a must.
Scouring are a option, but make annul more common is also the same answer.
Metacrafting (prefix/suffix) should b implemented, and not just for endgame omens... (I also really dont like rituals myself. not in POE 1, not in POE2)
There is not enough corrency drop in general.
Essences are still useless. We have a whole conversation about that.
The gambling system with gold shouldnt be a thing in mid/endgame at all.
The recombinators were far better how them used to be. And if u want an option where u destroy 2 items in the process, at lest, give us a good chance to get an item back, not a 0,5%.
In POE 1 there were an interesting crafting method using one of the expedition guys...
The hammer bench is a pain in the ass too. Same as being all the time picking up blue items to see if u find the right mod for a base...

So I would say. I´d like a system where item level matters to the roll u get. Not only by adding the max tiers, but also by cutting of the lowest ones.

I would like to be abble to roll. Maybe using essences or something not as common as alterations were. But at lest roll for the first 2-3 mods.

Id like then to have a recombinator like the old ones where u can keep mixing items to upgrade them with some decent chance to get it.
I dnt mind if them break sometimes, but please, not everytime...

I also would like to have some exalt annul or chaos spam chances with a bit a of metacraft (suffix/affix-Attack/caster)
Maybe make them less common if u do that, and find another way to work around maps without using that many exalteds on them.

I would also like a way to change resist from one to other. Like remove fire/add cold of the old sacred groove.

I would like to have more mods and interesting ones like those we have from Elder/shaper, conquerors, delve, betrayal, etc..

And Id like to have a use for Divines so them dont get that inflationary. Wich would b adding metacrafting options.

So: More interesting mods, shorten the tier roll list of them with item level, wich reduce the amount of currency needed but give them more value, more crafting methods, some les rng bassed ones, and more control over crafting to the player.

And Id like to have enchants, quality, runes and corruption on top of all that.

Thats my take. But Id love to keep hearing ur takes.