CRAFTING SHOULD NOT BE RNG, OTHERWISE IT'S NOT CRAFTING

"

JakkerONAIR#4902 написал:

"

Gordyne#2944 написал:

Yes, that's what I said: People complain about runewords that give too much power early on.

And that's not a matter of "people complain about anything". This has always been a common, valid complaint.

I don't understand you last two points. Crafting as requested in this post has never really been implemented in PoE. And I think it never will since it would affect trade tremendously.

It's not that hard to understand.

You say:
"Crafting does not belong in ARPGs."

I refuted your claim with:
"Even Diablo 2 has crafting."

Then you shift the goal post with:
"But some people complained about the power gained from D2 crafting."

While this is entirely irrelevant.
Your initial statement wasn't about the crafting system's power, but that they don't belong in ARPGs.

"

SpaceFoxyFū#3839 написал:

Crafting is all RNG in poe2. Every modifier you add is random unless you use essences or omens. But, this patch essences and omens are absolutely terrible anyways since exalts/orbs of alch/regals aren't even really worth using on items anymore.

"

Gordyne#2944 написал:

"

Twelten#1961 написал:

Yeah just let him cook. Man’s out here dodging arguments like Neo on espresso, twisting, spinning, shifting goalposts mid-air. It’s like debating a greased-up ferret in a maze made of jello.

I'm not dodging anything.

Problem is, you guys keep stating that everything is crafting and then the discussion gets very confusing.

Runewords are crafting now?

I thought crafting was, like you said, being able to tweak every affix.

This doesn't exist in D2. If you find a rare item there, you can't tweak it to your liking.

There's no way to actually have a logic debate when "crafting" is anything you deem as "crafting".

And, as I said, allowing the player to get predefined results really takes away at the exicetement and unpredictability of looting games.

But people nowadays are entitled and only want the "good" that comes with arpg, they don't want to be "unlucky" sometimes, every drop has to be an upgrade.

Do you know what would happen if GGG listened to you?

In a few months people would start asking GGG to make the crafting even easier, reduce the cost...

And easier, reduce the cost more...

Until nothing in the game matters anymore.

You know that would happen.

"

Twelten#1961 написал:

Man, my original point was simple, either give players some control in crafting (half RNG, half decision-making), or go all-in on deterministic crafting with RNG coming from other sources, like vaal orbs or drop rates.

"

Twelten#1961 написал:

Some middle ground in crafting isn’t about making the game “easy”, it’s about respecting player time. Not everyone enjoys gambling on every upgrade attempt. Some like it, some don’t. A good system can serve both.

"

Legoury#0138 написал:

"

Twelten#1961 написал:

Man, my original point was simple, either give players some control in crafting (half RNG, half decision-making), or go all-in on deterministic crafting with RNG coming from other sources, like vaal orbs or drop rates.

Okay lets thing together of ways to craft item :

1) Finding an already really good item with perfect affixes and make it better. For that you need : a lot of different affixes to be sure finding this item is not easy to find, and make player loots a lot of items cause thats the only way for them to improve their stuff. In that case, you are overwhelmed by items looted (like PoE1, Last Epoch,...) and we all know, thats what GGG devs decided to avoid in PoE2 (in comparaison of PoE1).
So in that situation, you have to grind, hoping to find the good item then craft it to make it the best item.

2) Having a only deterministic way, from 0 to best item. In that case the question is : why having loots if the best way to have best item is just to have a base and craft around as you want ? So in this case, loot is irrelevant. You just need to farm the "tool" that would allow you to craft your perfect item.


In my opinion, GGG decided in PoE2 to avoid this 2 situations. The choice made, and I think its the right one personnaly, its to give step by step some tools to make the craft more deterministic (fractured orb for ex) but keep a RNG part to avoid loot has no utility at all.
In the current situation, loot is important cause you can find some really good item by looting, but if you have enough ressources to craft, you can craft around a good base item too.
GGG would add more deterministic ways to craft items Im sure in the future btw.

"

Twelten#1961 написал:

Some middle ground in crafting isn’t about making the game “easy”, it’s about respecting player time. Not everyone enjoys gambling on every upgrade attempt. Some like it, some don’t. A good system can serve both.

Im sure most of players that complain about crafting dont even try to do it. They keep their exalted to buy stuff on market place, and didnt use it to craft.

As a SSF player myself, I can easily said I crafted some really good gear just by myself, trying.
In my guild, we are like 20 players (Im the only SSF player) and they always were amazed that my stuff was so good, and complained because for them "I got lucky". After my 3rd character made, they understood that it was not about luck, it was about trying or not and using your currencies to do it. In end game, with your hundreds of exalted orbs looted, you can easily tried to craft hundred of items. The hardest part is : how to decide if an item is good to craft or not ? To do that, you need knowledges about whats an prefix and suffix is, whats the best affixes and what you are looking for your build ?

And I know, what Im doing need a lot of time, that some players dont have. But I think most of players that dont have time, just do the campaign following a guide then buy a stuff with some exalted and go through the beginning of map like that. And yeah if you want to kill arbiter, you have to grind at a moment and so, play dozens of hours !!!

"

Twelten#1961 написал:

Not everyone is SSF, and not everyone wants to spend 40+ hours just to learn crafting theory before they can even start engaging with the system. If that’s the only viable path, many players will simply bounce. Why bother grinding in a game that feels like a chore when alternatives like Last Epoch exist with smoother systems?

"

Legoury#0138 написал:

"

Twelten#1961 написал:

Not everyone is SSF, and not everyone wants to spend 40+ hours just to learn crafting theory before they can even start engaging with the system. If that’s the only viable path, many players will simply bounce. Why bother grinding in a game that feels like a chore when alternatives like Last Epoch exist with smoother systems?

Its not the only viable path and you know that. Minority of players are playing SSF. Most use marketplace to buy stuff. And you dont have to learn how to craft to go to the end game, just need to keep your exalted then buy a good stuff or if you are lucky enough, loot a good stuff and sell it for a good price. Thats most of players are doing.

And I agree with something with you : PoE2 need to do a better stuff to help new players to understand how this game works.

And for Last Epoch you have a good point. The fact that : if you find a game too grindy, too hard or too time-consumming, why not playing another game that fit your envy ?

And you can easily see that. While launch of 1.2 Last Epoch happened, on steamDB, PoE2 lost just a few of thousands players, when 150k players played LE.
What does it means ? That most of players of LE dont play PoE2 and vice-versa. Cause this 2 games are really differents and its a good thing.
Why making the same game, the same proposition, when you can see some players want a new one ???

"

Twelten#1961 написал:

Sure, not everyone is SSF, and yes, most players trade. But even within trade league, the point still stands. The crafting system is so complex and punishing that the average player avoids it entirely. They just hoard currency and buy items because trying to craft themselves feels like throwing resources into a black hole.

That in itself is a problem.

If the majority of players avoid engaging with the core item system because it's too opaque or too punishing, then that's a design issue, not just a matter of preference. The fact that "just trade" is the go-to solution kind of proves the system isn't approachable for most players.

You're right that PoE2 doesn't need to become Last Epoch. But learning from what other games do well isn't a bad thing. A game doesn't need to copy its competitors to recognize when something is turning players away. A bit more clarity, consistency, or predictability in crafting wouldn't erase what makes PoE unique. It would actually make it more welcoming.

The idea that "if you don’t like it, play another game" is valid to a point. But from a developer and community perspective, that's also how a game slowly loses its playerbase. Not everyone will stick around to master a convoluted crafting system when other games respect their time more.

And sure, PoE2 only lost a few thousand players during LE’s 1.2 launch, but what about long-term retention? The question isn’t about players hopping temporarily, it’s about how many quietly stop logging in over time because the systems feel like they’re not worth the effort.

It’s not about making the game easy or turning it into something else. It’s about making sure that more players feel like they can engage with the systems, not just the small group that already understands every detail.

"

Twelten#1961 написал:

PoE2 can absolutely stay complex, but complexity needs to feel rewarding, not exhausting. Adding some intuitive, mid-tier deterministic steps in crafting wouldn’t ruin the experience. If anything, it would give more players a reason to keep playing.

"

Legoury#0138 написал:

Im sure most of players that complain about crafting dont even try to do it. They keep their exalted to buy stuff on market place, and didnt use it to craft.