Gating XP and progress behind RNG

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Splift написал:

If maps were even more plentiful than they already are then people would typically just run white maps.

The current system is a risk/reward system that pushes the player to make risks (rolling harder maps) balanced against spending currency, as opposed to endless mindless baal runs (white maps).

Of course most of the people bitching haven't put much thought into it, but GGG has to consider the bigger picture.

YES, it does suck when you run out of maps and are pushed lower, but just because something sucks does not always mean that it needs to be fixed (ie: dieing sucks but you wouldnt want to be godmode).

Wrong, just like demivion with his "faster to 100 lvl" crap.

The current system is a risk/reward system? With that, you've just proven that you have absolutely no idea what you're talking about, and you couldn't be more wrong. Ive never, in my whole life, seen a game with such a fucked up risk/reward situation.

And another classic "argument" of other side bitching... Spare us your macho side.

Nice explanation at the end, real geyser of wisdom. And I guess you also know what's fun for others, right?


You're using the same awful logic (if we can call it that...) with your white map arguments as Fruz did, that's because you are unable to look from the another angle and see that a non-luck gated endgame wouldn't be just free maps and everything else stays the same, because that would suck obviously.
A content gated behind difficulty would require running maps of super high quantity to be able not being pushed down to faceroll/no-exp mode (at least in my eyes).
And with that (chaining top maps), the experience gain would have to be reduced substantially, nullifying the "faster to 100 lvl" crap argument.

Is there anyone out there that can provide a real counter to difficulty gated system as opposed to luck based one?

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Perq написал:

Thread. Run +90Quant maps, stop crying. When I got my character strong enough to run yello, high quant maps, I rolled to 75+ maps in no time. If you run white maps, don't expect to be rained with maps. System works, it has some RNG in it, but it DOES work. (Map fragments for Atziri suck tho).

You rolled into 75+ maps, have you stayed there, if you have, for how long? Judging by your zero characters in any ladder, I can guess the answer.

See, you're right about not expecting map rain in white maps, but, one can't expect map rain even in 150% maps.
And that alone makes your "it has some RNG in it" false.

The amount of RNG in mapping is huge, almost full.
IIQ on maps has probably the lowest possible impact on map drops, best thing to do is get pack size for more experience, but even that is RNG based because of RNG in the amount of monsters initially spawned in the map.
You can roll a 50% pack size Shipyard and get less monsters/exp in a Shipyard without pack size, but that doesn't happen often, luckily.

Another issue is that a lot of the maps that do drop are lower level, partly significantly so (e.g. four levels lower), which adds to the frustration.

I hope they'll add something else then doing just maps if you want to level up. Like GGG said before; maps are for the loot. Iirc, they said they weren't to be intended to be run to gain experience, although that seems quite odd as they have never mentioned any kind of other system besides the map system.

The map drops is for me a love/hate thing, no middle ground. The most annoying part for me, is the amount of orbs you literally just waste on it. I'm really sure that I'm not the only one who spent 20's to 30's chaos on a single map, where no maps nor any kind of value were dropping inside that map. Although, with the removal of the Maze mod, it became significant less, but it still is the same thing over again. Sometimes I just log off because I do not like to spent my hard earned wealth to gain my exp; especially in those moments where you are low on wealth.

Eventually; I don't see orbs/currency anymore as a market value; more as how much experience you get. The amount of wealth/orbs you have, that's just to give you a gamble how much exp you'll gain per map (given if you want to roll alch, chisels, chaos for alot of IIQ). Personally this is for me the biggest flaw; each their own reasons. I'm still unsure about the feelings about this.

I'm not here to offend anyone in particular; but you have to understand that the endgame ie exactly the end of the game. There isn't something beyond it, stop seeking for it. The problem lies within the definition of Path of exile's "Endgame". What is exactly the endgame? People have all sorts of definition by this term; The end of the game, is when you have beaten up Dominus on merciless difficulty. However, the majority (including me) refer the map system as THE endgame. However, I feel this is not true. Even though many of us only do maps when we play the game.

We have to separate two things, because there is a great difference; Gating exp and getting to level 100, 95 or 90. Gating experience start as soon as you create a level 1 character. Each zone gives you an increased experience rate if the zone next zone is a higher level. This is also true for maps. Although, when we are discussing gaining experience in an efficient way, that does not imply that you have to run the highest available content to you; you tend to do whatever is in your favour. This depends per build and player and as well for your map pool. The further you get into your progress, the more time and effort it requires to go further, and so infinite. No matter in what situation; if there is something considered as RNG, this will always be true.

You don't need to run level 78 or 77 maps in order to gain experience, you can run lower level maps just fine to get that. But if you tend to ought to run those maps to gain the most experience; the problem lies within the player, not within the game. Of course, the highest maps do give a significant amount more experience, it's still no reason to ought to play those maps, because you'll end up in an endless cycle of frustration, because it wasn't even intended to do that content all the time. They might have made a mistake with the Cartographer's stronboxes in the Ambush league. The amount of higher level maps that are done right now, is so much more then it used to be. It will never be enough, no matter how much they increase it.

Why don't we try to set our endgame value at level 75 maps? or even 74? Or hell, even the lower map bracket. who cares. It is up to you who is deciding, not the game.

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tinko92 написал:

Wrong, just like demivion with his "faster to 100 lvl" crap.

They were correct, you however, were wrong. You can hit level 100 in docks/sceptre anywhere outside of maps or even low level maps. 78 maps aren't needed, they are wanted for boosted XP gains, therefor should remain rare. This is exactly like the people that think they NEED a 6L.

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tinko92 написал:

The current system is a risk/reward system? With that, you've just proven that you have absolutely no idea what you're talking about, and you couldn't be more wrong. Ive never, in my whole life, seen a game with such a fucked up risk/reward situation.

When you turn 18, buy a lottery ticket, congratulations you have just played a game with a more fucked up risk/reward situation. That is exactly the way mapping works. 120% quantity on a map gives you 120% more chances at the RNG drawing for maps and loot.

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tinko92 написал:

And another classic "argument" of other side bitching... Spare us your macho side.

Pot meet kettle.

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tinko92 написал:

Nice explanation at the end, real geyser of wisdom. And I guess you also know what's fun for others, right?

And you do? Trying to make the game unfun for people who enjoy the grind? Ya spare me your egotistical bullshit.

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tinko92 написал:

You're using the same awful logic (if we can call it that...) with your white map arguments as Fruz did, that's because you are unable to look from the another angle and see that a non-luck gated endgame wouldn't be just free maps and everything else stays the same, because that would suck obviously.
A content gated behind difficulty would require running maps of super high quantity to be able not being pushed down to faceroll/no-exp mode (at least in my eyes).
And with that (chaining top maps), the experience gain would have to be reduced substantially, nullifying the "faster to 100 lvl" crap argument.

This is awful logic (yes I will call it that). Many people have no problem maintaining a high level map pool because they understand how to manage their pools.

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tinko92 написал:

Is there anyone out there that can provide a real counter to difficulty gated system as opposed to luck based one?

Yes, because PoE already has both implemented. Act 3.1 is difficulty gated and the map system while luck based depends on how you manage your maps. I understand people are lazy and don't want to learn how, or just want to run their highest maps all day until they go back down to 74s get pissed they are out of high level maps. Here is a tip, don't do that. Drop down as far as you have to leaving yourself with higher level maps. If you run out of maps it IS YOUR FAULT. Even if RNG screws you all the way down to 66 maps there is NO REASON you shouldn't still have your highest map(s) even if you aren't running them.

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tinko92 написал:

You rolled into 75+ maps, have you stayed there, if you have, for how long? Judging by your zero characters in any ladder, I can guess the answer.

Judging by my multiple characters from Standard, Domination and Ambush, the only one I had an issue with was standard. Then after mapping more and more I was able to figure out how to manage the map pool I have, instead of going full retard running all my high level maps through a bad RNG streak leaving me without maps and frusterated (like most in this thread).

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tinko92 написал:

See, you're right about not expecting map rain in white maps, but, one can't expect map rain even in 150% maps.
And that alone makes your "it has some RNG in it" false.

White maps drop 0 maps, 150% maps drop 0 maps, that is the definition of RNG is RNG.

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tinko92 написал:

The amount of RNG in mapping is huge, almost full.
IIQ on maps has probably the lowest possible impact on map drops, best thing to do is get pack size for more experience, but even that is RNG based because of RNG in the amount of monsters initially spawned in the map.
You can roll a 50% pack size Shipyard and get less monsters/exp in a Shipyard without pack size, but that doesn't happen often, luckily.

This is the first thing you have said right (and also wrong). As people that bash the game generally bring up, this game is like playing the lottery, so I will use that as an example (again). When you roll 120% quanitity it is giving you 120% more drawings to get a map, even if you were playing an actual lottery you can buy a $1 ticket or 1000 $1 tickets, and still lose. If done repeatedly, eventually the 1000 $1 tickets will pay out far more times than a single entry.

Also, damn near every negative thread about something in the game, you are in the thread using scapegoat examples, extremities and underhanded insults. You could try using logic and actual examples of things, then people may at least pretend to take you seriously.

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Worldbreaker написал:

If you run out of maps it IS YOUR FAULT.

sig worthy

Run lower level maps when you blank high level ones or Run lower level maps in advance.

For time, XP and other purposes it doesn't matter when player redos map pool.
Except doing the latter player fools himself into thinking that problem doesn't exist and everything is OK.

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Juhazzz написал:

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Perq написал:

Thread. Run +90Quant maps, stop crying. When I got my character strong enough to run yello, high quant maps, I rolled to 75+ maps in no time. If you run white maps, don't expect to be rained with maps. System works, it has some RNG in it, but it DOES work. (Map fragments for Atziri suck tho).

You don't need to do that, it's all behind rng, quantity doesn't mean a slightest bit on the maps. Packsize is a nice mod for more xp. I used to do that in the open beta and short time after release was, but now I played at Invasion to 93 and never rolled (unless it was an accident) a map over 50%+ Q. I ripped there 2-3 weeks ago and quickly looking at my stash, I still have 7x 78 maps, 5x77 maps and few 76 maps, all lower maps I have sold, which were dropping really frequently also. I didn't even chisel 76 maps, 77 maps I was being soft and chiseled to 10%.

Back in standard I used to run some white 76-78 maps and yes, they can bring the maprain also. I don't really enjoy at all, that character progression is based on luck. Afterall, all I ever cared about was reaching level 100. I've had a serie of 33x 77 maps run without a single 75+ map dropping and that's back when I always tried to get atleast 80% quantity on the maps I'm opening.

But overall the maps are really dropping a lot more often what they used to, but still not enjoying the rng-progression.

You keep on using quantity word, and I'm not sure you know what it means. No really. It says it gives you more items. More items -> more maps. More maps -> Bigger chance for higher lvl maps -> Faster map progression. Yes, it is chance. But how else you want it done?

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CCR5 написал:

Run lower level maps when you blank high level ones or Run lower level maps in advance.

For time, XP and other purposes it doesn't matter when player redos map pool.
Except doing the latter player fools himself into thinking that problem doesn't exist and everything is OK.

There isn't a problem so it doesn't exist.

Do you blow all your chaos rolling gear? Do you yolo all your exalts? Vaal all your gear with no backups?

The answer is most likely no, in which case, why the hell would you do that with maps? Maps are essentially currency as they have flat rates rarely fluctuating similar to orbs, yet they aren't treated as such?

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Worldbreaker написал:

Yes, because PoE already has both implemented. Act 3.1 is difficulty gated and the map system while luck based depends on how you manage your maps. I understand people are lazy and don't want to learn how, or just want to run their highest maps all day until they go back down to 74s get pissed they are out of high level maps. Here is a tip, don't do that. Drop down as far as you have to leaving yourself with higher level maps. If you run out of maps it IS YOUR FAULT. Even if RNG screws you all the way down to 66 maps there is NO REASON you shouldn't still have your highest map(s) even if you aren't running them.

This is the dumbest thing I've seen anyone post in these forums in a while now.

I'm not even entirely sure what you want to mean with it.

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Worldbreaker написал:

Drop down as far as you have to leaving yourself with higher level maps.

"Run your high level maps, and if you get no map drops, run your lower level maps" is what this is saying, however it's left unclear whether you mean
1. "Run all your high level maps and if you get no drops and you lose them all without equal replacements, run lower level maps and repeat the process of running out of maps"
or
2. "Stop running high lvl maps if you don't get any replacements, run low level maps instead".

First means you'll run out of high lvl maps, which directly contradicts

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Worldbreaker написал:

Even if RNG screws you all the way down to 66 maps there is NO REASON you shouldn't still have your highest map(s) even if you aren't running them.

because if you ran out of high level you don't have any "highest level" maps left to have. Basically would mean "Run out of highest level maps without running out of highest level maps".

The second means you're purposefully not doing content, in which case it doesn't matter that you have them.
Basically what you're saying is "You want to do 78 maps, but since you will run out of 78 maps if you do them, don't so 78 maps so you'll have 78 maps in the stash". What the hell is that even supposed to accomplish?
People run 78 maps because they want to run level 78 maps.

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Worldbreaker написал:

NO REASON you shouldn't still have your highest map(s) even if you aren't running them.

If I am not running my maps, I'll have the maps cos I didn't run them.

Do you even know how maps work?

You put a map in the map device and activate it. The map is consumed, gone, never to be seen again, after this process.
That means, if I have one lvl 78 map in my stash, and I take it out of my stash, there is no level 78 map in my stash any more.
"If I have 1 apple, and give you that one apple, how many apples do I have at the moment after I gave you that single apple I had?"

This means that if I run my map there's a HUGE REASON why it's gone if I didn't get a new one from it.

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Worldbreaker написал:

Maps are essentially currency as they have flat rates rarely fluctuating similar to orbs, yet they aren't treated as such?

Trading metastasized into your brain, suggest treatment with D3 RoS.