RNG vs hard work system

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Hodari написал:

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Isbox1 написал:

I am fond of a "hard work" system. I played the game over a year wasting over 6,000 fuses for zero 6L - even on a shitty mediocre item - for example. And I'm not addicted to gambling therefore I don't play POE now. Counter to what some people are saying in this thread there are gamers who exist who would be very fond of any other system on the face of the planet in comparison to what crafting/drop systems POE currently has.

I'm sure others would give POE another look if they knew their time was valued as a player. Myself included.

There is a "hard work system" like that already in place. It's called trading. If you farm for any significant length of time, you're almost guaranteed to get a few chaos orbs along with a bunch of jeweler's, alterations, etc. Not to mention junk items that can be vendored for more of those low currencies. If you don't get lucky and just FIND the item you want or even anything worth several exalts, the "hard work" option is to save up all those smaller drops and trade them for what you were looking for. It's almost guaranteed that SOMEONE will be selling it. Probably someone will even have one with the exact links and colors you're looking for, though you may have to pay a lot more

There are people and quite many of them that prefer obtaining an item themselves over trading for one.

We're the rat.

There could be a better more linear return on using Fusing Orbs harvested from farming.

But the core of the game, that best in slot has to have a 1 in 100,000 chance in a day of dropping, that should remain as it is.

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F1ghtClub написал:

You guys just don't get it. Let me explain why RNG games are so successful.

When someone pulls a slot machine in Vegas and hits a jackpot, the brain releases an orgasm of chemicals that give the person a 'high'. That why Vegas is king and why there are so many gambling addicts everywhere you look.

Getting a unique to drop does the same thing. That's why you get the special sound and the laser beam from the heavens when one drops. It's to reinforce the addiction players are forming.

Addiction will always keep players playing WAY the fuck more than any 'hard work reward' system. Your suggestion will never fly because these devs already have the player base hooked on RNG crack. No need to change perfection.

So you think that one person getting jackpot in POE on every 5000 (if not higher) people playing will keep players to actually play?

No i dont think so.

Everyone is gambler by nature, but to what extent?

I, personally enjoy rng and loved it in every game, and i am gambler in rl, but even i cant take this much RNG in POE, and reason is that RNG in POE is not RNG. It is fabricated and riged.

I have 5+ characters lvl 90+, i have identified thousands and thousands of wands, thousands and thousands of weapons, and i got only 1 T1 phys dmg roll, and only tier 3 spell dmg roll on wand. That sir is not rng, its bullshit.

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DirkAustin написал:

No reward from playing the game? Hm, i wonder why i am having fun then. People that make statements like you do should look for a different game, this really isnt yours it seems, sorry.

People like you are setting their account on private for reason.
You have 3-4 characters lvl 50 max.
You never got to maps.

You are the person that plays soccer but doesnt want to score the goal, cause you dont care. You just run with the ball on green pasture not caring to score the goal. And you know what?
Thats perfectly fine, it is what you enjoy. But pls, have some decency and respect for people that are playing soccer to score the goal and win.

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CharanJaydemyr написал:

Spectacularly poor analogy. Soccer has one aim -- score more goals than the other side, win the game. If you fartarse about, you get kicked off the team.

If your comparison held, many of the players would be kicked out of this game. There is more than one goal here, and no one has the right to say which is more important because it's subjective. Whether it's be to be a great racer, to just have fun, to be number 1, whatever. You don't get to decide which of these is more 'valid'.

Have you ever played soccer as a kid, without any clubs involved. Just on a random field with whatever ball you could find?

I have and I can tell you one thing, scoring goals was rarely the aim. Trying to do stupid stuff with a ball that looked cool was, whether or not it ended in the goal after we finished was very much secondary.

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DirkAustin написал:

No reward from playing the game? Hm, i wonder why i am having fun then.

In aRPGs reward == game. Because without gear (aka reward) you cant re-roll and play the game more.

Of course in PoE all your problems can be solved by trading. Trading is the closest thing to the "hard work" system, that almost completely eliminates RNG.

It's funny how some GGG's design axioms are directly negated by trading:

- You are not supposed to chain high maps. Except if you trade a lot, then you can chain everything you want all day.

- You are not supposed to reach lvl 100 fast. Two-week race, highest lvl 97, achievable by chaining the aforementioned maps. Not possible without trading.

- You are not supposed to get 6L sure and easily. Except by doing a lottery. Trading mechanism wins again.

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CharanJaydemyr написал:

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BoondockSaint написал:

People like you are setting their account on private for reason.
You have 3-4 characters lvl 50 max.
You never got to maps.

You are the person that plays soccer but doesnt want to score the goal, cause you dont care. You just run with the ball on green pasture not caring to score the goal. And you know what?
Thats perfectly fine, it is what you enjoy. But pls, have some decency and respect for people that are playing soccer to score the goal and win.

Spectacularly poor analogy. Soccer has one aim -- score more goals than the other side, win the game. If you fartarse about, you get kicked off the team.

If your comparison held, many of the players would be kicked out of this game. There is more than one goal here, and no one has the right to say which is more important because it's subjective. Whether it's be to be a great racer, to just have fun, to be number 1, whatever. You don't get to decide which of these is more 'valid'.

I see Dirk as kid playing soccer with other kids,no offense to Dirk. I dont see him as pro soccer player who's job is to score goal.He obviously doesnt want to compete nor do he care about end game (scoring goal). My analogy was his lvl 50 characters compared to lvl 90+ people here who have experience in risk/reward system, rng/fun system.

Edit: Are you talking about being kicked from soccer team based on your personal experience Charan?

lolz

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CharanJaydemyr написал:

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BoondockSaint написал:

I see Dirk as kid playing soccer with other kids,no offense to Dirk. I dont see him as pro soccer player who's job is to score goal.
lolz

Oh, so now you're talking about different soccer games. Dude, stop changing your analogy to suit your needs when you get called on the flimsiness of your original. Either we're playing the same game or we're not. And if, as you now say, we're not, then who are you to criticize what's going on on his field where the aim might not be to score goals?

The outcome is the same. Only a dickhead 'pro' soccer player would go up to a bunch of kids just kicking a ball around and tell them they're doing it wrong if their aim is to have fun and just kick a ball around.

So by your original story, Dirk is a kid kicking the ball around not wanting to score goals *in a game where the other kids actually want to score goals*, but since that's been proven to be utterly irrelevant to PoE, you've changed your story to include multiple games of soccer, but still want to criticize how he chooses to play with other kids, even though they might ALL not be interested in scoring goals.

...Are you really sure you want to continue down this path?

holy shit, you are twisting everything i said.

bold part - we are playing the same game called POE, but with different goals, and on different levels, which i said was fine, and it is not me criticizing anyone, i wanted for Dirk not to criticize people that say they are not having fun in end game because of the broken systems risk/reward and RNG/fun. In both the former is utterly fucking up the latter. And Dirk doesnt know anything about it since he never got to that level (maps, crafting,linking).

So to some extent, no we are not playing the same game, since you never got to maps and i have played thousands of them, but you seem to know about them more then me.

Have you ever 6 linked any item in game? By this i mean finding great chest with great stats and trying to link it. And yes, some people have 6 linked it in 5 fuses, other like me spent 5000+ fuses and got nothing. And on 1 person getting 6L in 5 fuses comes God knows how many that will never get 6L in thousands of fuses. Broken system.

Have you ever tried to craft any item in game beyond regal orb? No i dont think you did.


second bold part- I dont agree with this, i think a lot of people need a goal, want to score a goal, compete in fair enviroment, to have a reason to play, to be rewarded for time spent, or their skill and knowing mechanics, things like that, i would go that far to say that we severly outnumber people like you Charan and Dirk.

One of the best ways to get currency in this game is minimizing your reliance on RNG.

It's just like poker, where you don't want to be lucky, but in that game luck is actually your enemy.

New players, or less knowledgeable players do not realize this... hence all the complaining.

I guess it is bound to happen in a game that has a constant and high knowledge curve.

Whilst everyone can/does have their own opinion, those of you who complain that after thousands and thousands of hours of grinding, you still haven't had a "good" drop and then refer to Kaoms/Shav's.... GOOD!

Those items are not suppose to be rewarded for time investment. They are for the lucky few who find/chance them.

Being able to become rich as a level 1 running along Tidal Island is a good thing and shouldnt be viewed as 'omg, thats such bs. I've played 1200hours and still no exalt'... instead, try 'how cool is it that from the beginning of the game, you can get a top item or valuable orb'.

By and large, I support GGG on a lot of their decisions. I also criticise other aspects, such as high level mapping costs, low level uniques dropping in high level areas and the fact maps of a significantly lower level can drop in high maps.
And whilst I can't disagree with every single suggestion made in this thread, it is clear that some of the time, some players don't infact know what they want. They think they do, but if implemented, it would have negative affects they hadn't considered.

For example: 1 suggestion was for the boss in the map to guarantee a map drop of the same level. Whilst I agree I think the rewards for killing bosses needs to be more rewarding (drastically in some cases), I absolutely disagree with it being a map drop "of the same level". If/when you get to 76-78 maps, everyone is able to chain then, the downsides would soon become very obvious. Such as item inflation and power creep as 2 simple examples.