Dear Rory

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mark1030 написал:

And your logic is somehow not bullshit? A doctor does residency (practice being a doctor) to get experience. A programer writes code to get experience. Neither has to be the recipient of his work to learn how to do it.

You have to play the game to balance it properly. Stop defending Rory bro, this is inexcusable. No major gaming company has their head QA not play their own game. That's just ridiculous. The fucking job of the QA person is to play the game in order to find bugs/what is broken with the game.

A programmer has to run his code to see how it works. A video game balancer has to play his own game to see how things work out (at least to eliminate obviously broken ass shit). What you're essentially telling me is that any fucking monkey can balance PoE if you just give him the right numbers, which is completely false.

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mark1030 написал:

A programer writes code to get experience.

You're saying here that Rory is just there to implement the change and has no say in how the game gets balanced, which isn't really true. I'm no professional here, but I did make a few mods here and there and I can say with confidence that I'd be making jack shit without knowing the game inside-out and testing every change at least to get the general feel.

That said, I assume the whole thing was a minor miscommunication, it isn't possible to work in balancing and not play the game at all, maybe he meant his spare time or something.

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allbusiness написал:

Скрытый текст

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ScrotieMcB написал:

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raics написал:

Look at Blood Magic keystone, data says it is being used but it won't tell you it isn't being used for its original purpose at all.

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allbusiness написал:

GGG can see that everyone used CWDT+IC+EC before. Statistically it should say 'nerf this because it's being utilized far too much.'

I thought I made it clear that mere popularity is irrelevant. It is average performance which matters. This is a hugely important distinction!

And sorry, raics, but it doesn't much matter how people get a thing to work. If it works, it works. Working isn't underpowered.

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allbusiness написал:

why everyone was using RM? Because auras are immensely far too strong, and that stacking multiple auras together yields far too many rewards (it is a major reason why LL with Shavs is so ridiculously crazy good, as you can stack a few auras on life, while a few other can be put on mana). Only ingame experience can tell you that, numbers can't tell you that.

Actually, I think common sense would tell you that. No experience required.

The one thing I should emphasize is that while I believe performance data to be supremely valid as a diagnostic tool, it grants no particular insight into how to actually solve balance problems. I do not mean to say a designer wouldn't learn their own game better by playing it. What I am saying is that there is a separation between the questions "How do I fix this?" and "Does this need fixing?" and that statistics, not personal experience, is the best way to answer the latter question, despite being utterly useless in regard to the former question.

Like you said, statistics only answers 'does this need fixing' and not 'how do I fix this.'

In order to answer 'how do I fix this' it requires extensive experience/training.

I stopped short of that, because innovation is, by its nature, something no one really has experience in. There's a huge difference between familiarity with a broken system and coming up with improvements. Sometimes a fresh perspective is good. Sometimes not.

But in all cases - all cases - the way to verify that a solution was effective is the statistical approach.

Thus, if you ask me, the best way to make adjustments to the most seriously flawed systems is to run a closed beta test with a small yet statistically significant, sample of players, then you throw darts at the dartboard and see what sticks.

I dunno man, I kind of feel like statistics can tell you there is a problem, cod eb aa over used, stats prove it, there is a problem. But if you dont know your own game and understand why they are over used, why the problem exists then your chances of coming up with a good solution are severely diminished. Simply doing anything that will make the statistics change is not the way to balance the game, is not the sure path to a better game. Understanding why the problem exists and addressing the actual issues is.

Is it easier to hit a target without a blindfold on?

Well, duh.

But you still need a plan for what happens if you miss. Hence the small (RANDOM!!1) sample size, rather than potentially ruining things for everyone.

And with a long enough beta, the blindfold won't really be a factor upon the end result. Typewriters, monkeys, Shakespeare, etc.

I guess really understanding one's own game through play is a factor on how quickly a game can be developed. However, in terms of how well it is developed, that is based on non-player attributes such as game design knowledge, dedication to one's craft, metrics, resource management, and risk management.

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grepman написал:

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raics написал:

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grepman написал:

I very much doubt gems will go legacy anytime soon. there was no precedent before and those that could go legacy(phase run for example) were simply removed. yeah that was before the OB so it was elegant that they were simply wiped, but still...

You probably missed Item Quantity going legacy. Phase run got phased out (it's a pun!) when they performed the last wipe, that's why it hasn't went legacy.

bah youre right, that was a brain fart by me. I stand corrected.

Item Quantity didn't go legacy; nothing was changed. It simply stopped dropping.

ya maybe so, wasnt really commenting on that aspect of the discussion, honestly the moment they let people buy in to the beta it stopped being a place where the people in there had a duty to test stuff and be as constructive as they could imo and just became people playing something they paid to play for their own amusement I feel.


I dunno, I feel like this game, without 100,000s of people playing on a live server with proper trade functionality etc the game stops functioning the way it does in that environment. the sort of gear and the way people build in that environment is particular to that environment and testing as it is now on beta is great for bugs etc but meaningless for a lot of balances. Example, I would start a crit cyclone sword char as a ranger. Did I start as a Ranger? No I started scion because Im having to play it in a self found manner essentially so I need access to all those resist nodes and the life wheel which I would normally not bother with. Nothing about the way I build there, the way I level there, the passives I choose, the speed I play at, if I take jewels or not, what keystones Im drawn to etc, none of that is actually representative of the actual live game, at all, none of that data is valid.

if I find bugs, thats valid. If they really want to test mechanics changes they need to have their internal people cook up realistic builds using a variety of low end to high end gear, an awful lot of realistic builds and actually test stuff, people who are serious extremely experienced players and understand the availability and market costs of the gear theyre sandboxing and understand enough of a variety of builds from 4 figure hours live server playing experience to make comparative judgements. Im not sure they have those people tbh, I dont know that its even realistic for them to have those sort of people. If it were my game Id have hand picked players like zenocide etc and stuck them in a sandbox with the changes, not saying Id have let their opinions be deciding factors but Id have listened to them, even if I then chose to ignore a lot of them because I had my own vision.


I agree random is good and select group is good for some aspects but it is not representative of live realm play and for other aspects you need people who have very detailed and wide knowledge of live realm play who can think from a live realm play perspective in a sandbox actually looking at how changes function and the impact they have. imo of course.


Having played in the beta I honestly feel like its more about bug finding, buying time till things are finished and making some money from supporter access, some aspects they can get great data on sure, but a lot of it is just too detached from the reality of the game to have any meaning. I dont resent them money making, its the world we live in they need money to make the game, I dont resent it at all from a principal point of view personally. Does it make for great testing? I dont think anything about this beta makes for great testing so far tbh.

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mark1030 написал:

And your logic is somehow not bullshit? A doctor does residency (practice being a doctor) to get experience. A programer writes code to get experience. Neither has to be the recipient of his work to learn how to do it.

ur comparing science with a fucking art. In logic thats a strawman.

Either bone surgery does or does not work. Either game crashes or does not crash. Harder to quantify art and what makes ppl interested. I think hands on involvement is crucial. Besides we already seen what their fucked up balance team has done. many spec not even play anymore like spark like max block etc.

They are gonna fuck up a lot of other builds again this patch. So FOTM becomes be all end all much like D3 where every fucking wizard in top 20 uses exact same spec. That sucks IMO

some of the changes are pretty bad, like the sort of changes youd show a group of experienced players on paper and most of them would tell you it was a bad idea and why within 10 seconds of looking at it.


But I think some of the rory hate on the forums is unfair. I dont just say that because hes a fellow cat fan, tho that does give him bonus points, but ultimately hes human, he makes mistakes and he has a full time job that isnt playing PoE on a live server 8 hours every day. I think its unrealistic to expect him to be completely in touch. I think he maybe could be more in touch than he is, thats probably fair. But in reality I think what GGG is maybe lacking, and I cant say this for sure I dunno the ins and outs of what goes on there, but it feels like what they are lacking is enough of a diverse and experienced buffer between the devs ideas and what the players end up playing for ideas to be bounced off while they are still ideas up for debate.

Maybe someone hates an idea because it breaks something, and you actually want to break it, you dont always act on feedback but if that person understands the reality of playing the game 100 times more than you maybe they have some insight into why something is bad that you dont have as a Dev who doesnt play the game non stop. We cant expect Rory to be HvR, Raiz, Zeno, Ziggy, AXN, Anuhart, Mors and a million different casual players all rolled into one full spectrum superhuman PoE knowledge bank. But it certainly feels like those guys need a knowledge bank to bounce ideas off before they get past the point of no return, one that they take seriously. Neon is 1 guy, no 1 guy sees the whole picture, no 10 guys, its a vast game theyve made.

Im not saying necessarily in this thread, but across the forums across many threads I think some of the responses have been unfair. Personally I do despair at some of the changes, nothing is final but just that theyre considered good enough ideas to get as far as theyve got leaves me feeling disillusioned with GGG atm, but GGG is more than 1 guy, and as a team theyre responsible for an awesome game currently on the live servers.

My feeling is wheres the old GGG? The GGG that would let a problem sit until they had an elegant, simple solution that required the least tinkering? Least movement for maximum effect used to be the drive behind change, thoughtful, informed, subtle manipulations. Its all gone a bit bull in a china shop. Seems like the further its gone on the less in touch and precious they have become while what the game needs is more and more careful, sensitive adjustments to keep it fresh, not the kind of wideswing blue sky thinking that you employ when first creating a game and everythings completely fluid. As an artist its fun to tear it all down and make something new for news sake, cause on some level you dont give a shit about your own art, you can never be a 'fan' of what you have made and have that connection. But this is a game 2 years in motion with a dedicated fan base, its not about a fresh exciting new piece of art its about tuning, improving and expanding the reality of what it is. Yes thats restrictive and less fun for the artists themselves, trust me i know that feeling when Im sitting down designing graphics within a companies existing branding, but I have to appreciate its not about me and its not about making the best possible single piece of design I can make its about "what does this need to be to function and fit in with the chronology of my clients business".


#waffletho

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PrimordialDarkness написал:

Problem isn't that Rory and the balance team themselves don't do the testing themselves as I see it.

The real problem is that they don't even actually play the game in its current form. Rory freely admitted on playing another game all the time in the Q/A, and he also admitted that he hasn't tried out all those mechanics in either their current or their beta form.

There are some seriously false assumptions in this thread.

Rory has played current versions of the game well into maps.

Changes made are tested directly as they get made, as well as by QA more broadly after that.

Yes, Rory has been known to play other games in his spare time. (As well as Path of Exile).