RNG vs hard work system

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Isbox1 написал:
For example for those who are 1>65 crowd you can logically argue that the game is flawless. Now myself, I would say that the game is unrewarding because of my experiences 75 and onwards on multiple characters... making multiple attempts to 6L items. Now set both of us together in 1 thread about the game - and there you see our differences. "Game sucks" "Game is amazing" - there inlies the issue I find a LOT of these so called GGG troll knights and staunch, never moving supporters are in your 1>65 crowd - happily oblivious to issues that people in, say, my crowd are having.


this

I am definitely in that 1-65 crowd you describe. I've taken a few characters to 90 and once you hit 80 the game turns into something like death by a million tiny cuts. Most of the time I won't even clear merc before I reroll.
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CharanJaydemyr написал:
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Boem написал:
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Given the content only really goes up to 80, I don't even see a valid argument for why people going for 100 should have anything but the most unpleasant experience ever. :P

You want to scale K-2, that's your business.


I don't necessarily have an issue with this logic, but it would be more fitting if GGG had put the max level bracket at lvl 80 then.

Or don't you agree?

This is a self inflicted wound imo. Nobody's fault but GGG and there way of handling the "hardcore" in there design. If the ladder maxed out at lvl 80, and player progression equally, the game would be harder and better balanced atm.


I completely agree. When I asked a dev why we even have such a high cap despite the content limit, and why gaining levels from 90+ really doesn't give your character any big boosts (one passive point, woohoo!), the reply was essentially 'because some people want that challenge.'

On the other hand, there's a perfectly valid argument that if the hard cap were 80, people would quit sooner, player base drops, etc etc.

...Personally I think it would be a healthy loss of high-end flab. Is anyone under the illusion that someone playing from 80-100 is any more likely to support financially by buying character-based aesthetic mtxes as someone enjoying 1-70 over and again on multiple characters?!

And not just in a financial sense either. The game looks *dead boring* past level 80 to me. It's just grind, grind, grind. What sort of image does that give off as an 'end game' for potential players, as opposed to things like diverse races/leagues and different play styles?

Not to mention the trading meta-game...

In short, absolutely I think it was a mistake not to cap the game based on content limitations within a sane envelope.


Its kinda funny how D3 had a lvl cap of 60 which was way too low and POE has a lvl cap at 100 which is kinda high.

Lvl 80 i think would have been good enough in POE. Unless they plan on making act 10 zones to be around 80 or 90+ its kinda pointless really to try to get to 100 even with the maps going up to 76 or whatever.
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Its kinda funny how D3 had a lvl cap of 60 which was way too low and POE has a lvl cap at 100 which is kinda high.

Lvl 80 i think would have been good enough in POE. Unless they plan on making act 10 zones to be around 80 or 90+ its kinda pointless really to try to get to 100 even with the maps going up to 76 or whatever.


The problem i think now is, for who do you balance the lvl 78 (top) maps?

Do you design them to "kill" players of lvl 90+- and higher, or do you design them to kill lvl 78 players +- almost nullifying any thread to lvl 90+ characters.

That's why i said that the current level cap hinders the overall balance of the game.

+20 skill points +- is not something to take lightly at the endgame, neither is the +hp from each level etc.

And to be fair up to lvl 85/88 imo is perfectly viable and sane, if you enjoy randomly generated area's just to slay monsters. My highest is lvl 92 and i stil enjoy mapping with that character, simply because it is a fun character, not so much for the grind but for the fun of slaying some packs of mobs.

(just to say, i can understand why some people enjoy grinding a character out so far, it can allow for some very specific character options)

But really how do you balance a game, where the hardcore crowd you wanna kill farms to level 100 in lvl 78 content.
And the "casuals" (no harm intented :O ) just wanna have a fun time in those same lvl 78 instances?
Freedom is not worth having if it does not include the freedom to make mistakes
Последняя редакция: Boem#2861. Время: 23 мая 2014 г., 19:48:20
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CharanJaydemyr написал:
Ah, see. It all comes back to this: who is the game made for?

There's some definite have-the-cake-and-eat-it-too mentality to PoE's design, and in the end, I think both sides are left with a pile of crumbs rather than a nice big slice of choc mud goodness.


It is perfectly possible for a game to cater to different crowds, different styles of play, at the same time. Diablo 2 was a very good example of this, and Diablo 3 was not. To me PoE clearly lies somewhere between those extremes, and the league system pushes it well towards the "2" end. Many general threads are taken the wrong way or get very aggressive responses because there is such a range of expectations and experiences in the player base.

And there are a lot of slices to be had between "whole cake" and "a few crumbs". PoE has such a crowd of self found players complaining about drops and trade spam and whatever else precisely because the game is CLOSE to being brilliant for them. Well over half a cakes-worth.

If the game is effectively designed to cap out at level 80 but the 80-100 range is "unlocked" with no content change, this should only be a good thing, it's another option thrown into the mix which some players may like. The problem is not in the cap being 100, it is in the false expectation this creates in some players that 100 is the intended cap for the content, and thus content is missing/broken.

Personally I think the gear finding and PARTS of the crafting/gambling are pretty well done, but the socket side of crafting (je/fu/chr) is terrible (going past the exciting/addictive chance of gambling and into downright discouraging) and the gap between randomised and directed crafting is too large. And the map crafting system unfortunately seems deliberately geared to push a certain style of play, compared to the rest of PoE.

(Experience disclaimer: Solo self-found altaholic who thinks the proposed "SFL" is a bad idea, highest char 74 and have tried maps but saw poor fun per currency ratio in repeating them over and over rather than trying to get there with yet another build - the game is clearly not made for me but it is close enough to keep my attention and support).
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Zanixx написал:
Whilst everyone can/does have their own opinion, those of you who complain that after thousands and thousands of hours of grinding, you still haven't had a "good" drop and then refer to Kaoms/Shav's.... GOOD!

Those items are not suppose to be rewarded for time investment. They are for the lucky few who find/chance them.

Being able to become rich as a level 1 running along Tidal Island is a good thing and shouldnt be viewed as 'omg, thats such bs. I've played 1200hours and still no exalt'... instead, try 'how cool is it that from the beginning of the game, you can get a top item or valuable orb'.

By and large, I support GGG on a lot of their decisions. I also criticise other aspects, such as high level mapping costs, low level uniques dropping in high level areas and the fact maps of a significantly lower level can drop in high maps.
And whilst I can't disagree with every single suggestion made in this thread, it is clear that some of the time, some players don't infact know what they want. They think they do, but if implemented, it would have negative affects they hadn't considered.

For example: 1 suggestion was for the boss in the map to guarantee a map drop of the same level. Whilst I agree I think the rewards for killing bosses needs to be more rewarding (drastically in some cases), I absolutely disagree with it being a map drop "of the same level". If/when you get to 76-78 maps, everyone is able to chain then, the downsides would soon become very obvious. Such as item inflation and power creep as 2 simple examples.


you got a wierd point of view... the problem of maps, is that they are actually to easy END OF THE STORY. anyone would love to do 78 maps all day if they could, just skip last boss if it is to hard for you.

The problem is that the maps are to easy. If everyone had access to lvl 78 maps for free but they would risk their characters or have 80% chance of losing xp instead of earning it guess what? you just found the solution to your item inflation... You just need to think more about solutions and less about problems. Believe me GGG mods have already heard thousands of times every single complain you made.
IGN: RFFP
Последняя редакция: benkeia#7772. Время: 23 мая 2014 г., 22:37:25
Intelligent Quotient (IQ) Test

1. Which of the following is usually considered to be more fun?

a. Lottery

b. Hard work


Answer key
1. a
When Stephen Colbert was killed by HYDRA's Project Insight in 2014, the comedy world lost a hero. Since his life model decoy isn't up to the task, please do not mistake my performance as political discussion. I'm just doing what Steve would have wanted.
Последняя редакция: ScrotieMcB#2697. Время: 23 мая 2014 г., 23:59:21
78 should be for 78 this is why its 78 and not 89

If they can make maps for 66-78 whatever surely they can make maps for 78-100 no?
And i don't think it would take long to do this as they could just mirror maps already in use and name them higher lvls

Sure it may be the same maps but at least its something till they can make all new maps or whatever

They wouldn't even need to add new images to the game really just copy the highest map code it for a higher lvl and use its ingame map randomized and boom! lvl 78-100 maps

It would be better then nothing we have right now (and most likely for a loooong time since we still don't have act 4)

We need a mission system
I love PoE and play it almost everyday but it has serious problems with loot system. Mainly in mats which they don't expect you to use for actual crafting but trading. It would take you like 50-100 exalts to make a GG item, one item!!! Has anyone ever dropped 100 exalts? Such BS. Seasoned players should have dropped over 1000. I dropped 5 and never an eternal.

I think I'm fine with unique drops. They seem decent pace, can chance them too and get guaranteed ones from the Queen. But mats are horrible. Good luck ever 6L your found Defaince for example in one season of fuse drops.



Git R Dun!
Последняя редакция: Aim_Deep#3474. Время: 24 мая 2014 г., 00:51:01
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CharanJaydemyr написал:
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Qetuth написал:

the false expectation this creates in some players that 100 is the intended cap


And how would you propose combating this? As long as the character level exists, people are going to expect content to match.


That's a good question. Some games have done it by calling the higher levels 80(1) through to 80(20) or something similar but I've never liked that style, and too late now. A more widely publicized statement from GGG that 80+ is "bonus levels" until act 4 is released would be effective with some players more than others.

Ultimately with the current setup the best thing might be to continue with incremental map system improvements and new features like each 4 month league includes, until the system can have a bigger overhaul with act 4.

With the addition of a new act, things like changing the final storyline level, the starting and ending map levels, the starting and ending map difficulties, and the number of difficulties, are much easier to rethink (also, the difficulty mismatch between act 3x and act 1 of the following difficulty! It's D1-like!).

Of course, that is assuming they want to change that top end situation... If everything just gets rebalanced so that act 4 merciless ends in the high 60s, and maps are still mid 60s to high 70s, we'll just be having the same conversations for the foreseeable future.
My understanding was, as acts get added, difficulties get deleted.

No idea how the res penalty would be applied though.

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